Why Chris Pronger Is Driving Up The Value Of Tomas Kaberle

June 28th, 2009 by Steve

So two days ago, in the first round of the 2009 NHL entry draft, the Philadelphia Flyers traded Joffrey Lupul, Luca Sbisa, and two first round draft picks (2009, 2010) AND a conditional 3rd round pick in 2010 or 2011 to the Anaheim Ducks for Chris Pronger and prospect Ryan Dingle.  The conditional pick is dependent upon whether or not Pronger resigns with the Flyers.

Dingle was undrafted, and played 4 years in the USHL with Des Moines and Tri City before moving on to play another 3 years with the University of Denver in the WCHA conference of the NCAA. Dingle was signed as a free agent by the Ducks in 2006-07. He played a few games with the Portland Pirates in the AHL after leaving Denver in the midst of the 2006-07 season, and eventually dropped down to the ECHL to play with the Augusta Lynx.  This past season he spent the entire season playing for the Iowa Chops in the AHL.  He’s 5′10″ and 190 lbs, and he scored 11 goals and 18 points in 70 games.  Suffice it to say, he’s unlikely to make a huge impact in the NHL.

Which basically leaves us with Chris Pronger for WAY TOO MUCH. Lupul is a former 7th overall draft pick of the Ducks, who has played 372 NHL games, in 5 full NHL seasons.  He has scored 20 or more goals in 3 of those seasons already, and he isn’t even 26 yet - oh and this is the second time he’s been traded for Chris Pronger, which I’d imagine is flattering and frustrating at the same time.

Luca Sbisa was the 19th overall draft pick in the 2008 entry draft and he played 39 games with the Flyers as an 18 year old.  He was probably rushed a tad, and was eventually sent back to the Lethbridge Hurricanes of the WHL for the remainder of the season.  Add on the two other first rounders, and that’s FOUR first round draft picks for Chris Pronger.

Chris Pronger is a great D man.  He’s probably one of the top 5 in the NHL, but he’s definitely a notch below Lidstrom and Chara these days.  He’s won a Stanley Cup - albiet alongside Scott Niedermayer and the rest of the Ducks who weren’t exactly chopped liver - and he’s won a Norris and Hart trophy during his career (though frankly he won the Norris and Hart trophies in the same 1999-2000 season, and he’s never won either award again.  He led the NHL in +/- rating back in 1998-99 and 1999-2000… but that was 10 years ago.

He hasn’t been considered one of the League’s top 4 D men since 2006-07, and he’s not likely to be considered one of them again in the immediate future as he continues to age.  According to reports out of Philly he has already suggested he would like to sign an extension worth over $6 million a season… for 4+ years.

If this is not an example of overpayment, I don’t know what is.  Yes Pronger is a great defender, and a solid producer offensively, and he might very well make Philly the team to beat in the East, but 4 first round picks is a HUGE price to pay.  I have a very hard time believing that there were any offers even CLOSE to this one from the Flyers.  Anaheim could never have said no to it if it was out there either way.

So why does this impact on the Tomas Kaberle situation?  Well apparently at the draft there was a deal discussed between the Boston Bruins and the Leafs where Tomas Kaberle would be exchanged for Phil Kessel and there would be a first round pick going from one team to another.  The confusion in the deal arose from the fact that Toronto felt they were getting Boston’s first round pick, while Boston thought they were getting Toronto’s 7th overall selection.  If Peter Chiarelli honestly thought Brian Burke was insane enough to trade Tomas Kaberle (who costs only $4.25 million a year) AND the 7th overall pick in this year’s draft for an unsigned Restricted Free Agent in Kessel - then he’s crazy.

Either way, Burke didn’t finalize the deal for Kaberle and it might be the best thing he never did.  Kaberle for Kessel and a first rounder seems pretty cheap at this point as far as Kaberle goes.  Considering the uncertainty going forward with the Salary Cap, a player like Kaberle is actually even more valuable than his statistical lines would suggest.  Which isn’t to say his stats are less than stellar, it just means that considering he only costs a team $4.25 million a year against the cap for the next 2 seasons, he’s a huge steal.

Kaberle has been an All-Star for the past 3 consecutive seasons, and has been named to the All-Star team 4 times in his career.  His point totals have actually been shrinking steadily since the lockout but a lot of that likely has to do with the decline of the Leafs more than his skill set vanishing.  He’ll be turning 31 this year, and should still be well within the range of prime production years as a player.  He has produced over .50 points per game in 7 years of his 10 year NHL career, and in 2 others he produced over 0.44 points per game. Even as a rookie he produced 0.39 points per game.  Only 78 blue liners in the entire NHL produced over .39 points per game last season.  Only 37 of them produced over 0.5 points per game last season, and Kaberle produced 0.54 - his career average is 0.59 points per game.

Of the 37 D men that produced over 0.5 points per game the only blue liners making less than Kaberle are the following:

Niklas Kronwall, DET ($3 million per year)

Dennis Wideman, BOS ($3.9375 million per year)

Tom Gilbert, EDM ($4 million per year)

Ryan Suter, NAS ($3.5 million per year)

Jaroslav Spacek, BUF ($3.33 million per year - UFA)

Duncan Keith, CHI ($1.475 million per year)

Kevin Bieksa, VAN ($3.75 million per year)

Christian Ehrhoff, SJS ($3.1 million per year)

Marek Zidlicky, MIN ($3.35 million per year)

Filip Kuba, OTT ($3.7 million per year)

Cam Barker, CHI ($2.768 million per year - RFA)

Dennis Grebeshkov, EDM ($1.0 million per year - RFA)

Kyle Quincey, LAK ($525,000 per year)

JM Liles, COL ($4.2 million per year)

Matt Hunwick, BOS ($750,000 per year - RFA)

Cory Murphy, TBL ($412,500 per year - UFA)

James Wisniewski, ANA ($900,000 per year - RFA)

Of those 17 players, only Niklas Kronwall, Dennis Wideman, Kevin Bieksa, Marek Zidlicky, JM Liles, and Cam Barker have ever averaged over 0.59 points per game in a single season - which is Tomas Kaberle’s CAREER average over 10 seasons. Kaberle’s top season saw him average 0.82 points per game; higher than any player on that list by almost 0.2 points per game.

Hopefully I’m making a decent case here that Kaberle’s offensive production is easily worth the $4.25 million he’s pulling down.  Obviously his game is not as complete as Pronger’s, but he’s worth a lot more than he would be as one piece of a deal to obtain the un-signed RFA Phil Kessel.

At this point, I’d argue Kaberle is worth at least one solid roster player under the age of 27, and a first round pick. That’s still a lot less than Pronger got, and frankly I’m not sure Pronger is worth what the Ducks recieved for him.  The market has been set with the deals for Pronger and Bouwmeester, and I would be shocked if nobody steps up to get ahold of Kaberle while he’s available.

Posted in Player Analysis, Stat Analysis
  1. 16 Responses to “Why Chris Pronger Is Driving Up The Value Of Tomas Kaberle”

  2. By James K CANADA on Jun 28, 2009

    Some good solid points Steve. The fact is, Kaberle is highly regarded around the league and a number of teams would love to have him. It’s difficult to wait for Burke to make his big moves, but hopefully he pulls off something nice in the next couple of weeks for a solid return.

    Kessel would still be nice IMO, because how often is a player already established at 21 and available to be moved??

    I see potential trading partners in Tampa, Carolina, Boston, New Jersey, NYI, Columbus, Vancouver, Dallas, and Phoenix… and perhaps there’s other good fits I haven’t pointed out. Also, Boston is pretty loaded in the prospect department. Colborne, Hamill, and Brad Marchand at centre ice, on a team that’s very much set at that position today.

  3. By James K CANADA on Jun 28, 2009

    P.S.

    Darryl Sutter must be as inept as I think he is if he’s essentially said that Bouwmeester is the only acquisition he looks to make this summer. Why?

    Calgary’s forward depth = Iginla, Jokinen, Langkow… nosedive from there. The guy is nuts. They won’t win a thing this year. They’d essentially be this year’s playoff Ducks: a ton of skill on D and one great forward line, but not enough skill up front to get it done. Consecutive first round exit #5 anyone?

  4. By Steve CANADA on Jun 28, 2009

    I think Curtis Glencross and Craig Conroy deserve more than a passing mention for Calgary. Not to mention the fact that in their “system” they’ve stowed Rene Bourque, Wayne Primeau, Mikael Backlund (pretty talented youngster methinks), Leland Irving (also talented), Mark Giordano, Brett Sutter, J.D. Watt, Brett Palin, and Dustin Boyd (who is an RFA) down on the farm somehow. They have some decent forwards waiting to make the jump so losing Cammalleri and Bertuzzi shouldn’t be a huge problem this off season for them.

    As for their blue line, they’re trading away someone, and if they can’t deal Phaneuf, it’ll probably be Sarich or Regehr. They need to free up cap space either way, and I’m guessing they’ll want roster players in return.

    Ironically, the Leafs may end up being a dance partner with the Flames for cheaper forward help in exchange for a tougher blue line: Regehr for Stempniak and Stajan?

    Just an idea they might want to consider if the Leafs deal Kubina and Kaberle away. I’d be ok with Regehr on the Leafs blue line next season.

  5. By Walter Gretzky CANADA on Jun 28, 2009

    “Boston thought they were getting Toronto’s 7th overall selection. If Peter Chiarelli honestly thought Brian Burke was insane enough to trade Tomas Kaberle (who costs only $4.25 million a year) AND the 7th overall pick in this year’s draft for an unsigned Restricted Free Agent in Kessel - then he’s crazy.”

    Hey Chiarelli, this is Brain Burke, Not JFJ.

    Great points Steve

  6. By James K CANADA on Jun 28, 2009

    Aucoin is coming off the books at 4 and Cammalleri at 3.35 (which is essentially greater or equal to Bouwmeester’s to-be salary) so I don’t know how crazy they’d be about moving Regehr. Sutter mentioned liking the idea of bringing in Jay-Bo to a blueline that already had Dion and Regehr.

    Okay, Glencross is alright, but Conroy is a receding talent for sure. I just don’t see them as contenders losing Cammalleri’s output, and even Bertuzzi’s. They should try and get Big Bert for one more season.

    Sarich might be the one to go, as he sits at 3.6 which is a bit much considering your top 3 would be making a combined 18 million or so.

    Pelech has been told that he’s in the plans for this year and they might have another kid (Negrin?) who could fill out the 3rd pairing.

  7. By kidkawartha CANADA on Jun 28, 2009

    Steve-
    Wouldn’t it be nice if we traded both Kaberle and Kubina separately to the two teams most likely to have the first pick next year for their firsts? (plus two solid prospects, etc)
    Taylor Hall in a Leaf’s jersey………

  8. By mf37 CANADA on Jun 28, 2009

    I hope you’re right, but I think Kaberle and Pronger are such different players (and Holmgren got so seriously fleeced) that we’re into apples and oranges here.

    Pronger has a Stanley Cup, a Hart Trophy, a Norris and led the Oil to the SC finals. He’s also a perfect fit for the Flyer, um, culture (he’s such a meat head that it couldn’t be more fitting for him to be finishing out his career in Philly Orange).

    Kabs doesn’t have the pedigree, the trophies or the personality/name recognition that’s going to drive prices through the roof.

    I fear that the fact that Chiarelli was demanding a pick, in addition to Kabs for Kessel, speaks volumes about Kaberle’s perceived value to other GMs.

    I really hope I’m wrong about this and your analysis is more prescient, but I have a bad feeing that when Kabs is traded it will be trade deadline day and draft-day redux and Leaf fans will be cursing Burke for setting high expectations and realizing thin returns.

  9. By Lee CANADA on Jun 29, 2009

    Didn’t Kabby (and Kubina, for that matter) win a World Championship with the Czech Replublic team?

  10. By Steve CANADA on Jun 29, 2009

    Lee: No, the only thing Kaberle has ever won is a Bronze Medal at the Olympics. Kubina has won a Stanley Cup and also won the Bronze.

    I think Chiarelli thought he was fleecing the Leafs, if he honestly thought that deal was going through there’s no way he turns it down. That doesn’t translate to him assuming that’s the value for Kaberle. It could just mean he thinks Kessel is worth that much… which sounds to me like he might be over valuing Kessel a bit?

    I’m not bashing Kessel though, he’s a very good player. Superior to Lupul for sure. If the Leafs got a player like Kessel and a 2nd or 3rd rounder I’d be fine with it.

  11. By wayne scarlett CANADA on Jun 29, 2009

    Lets just wait,until we see where Ohlund goes.Vancouver is the trade partner as far as I can see.The Leafs need anupgrade in the face off circle…Kesler.They would also need a Dman in return….Bieksa.

  12. By mf37 CANADA on Jun 29, 2009

    Kaberle also won a gold medal in the 2005 Worlds, but the larger point remains: compared to Pronger, Kabs has won zip.

    Kaberle might appeal to Vancouver, not sure a faceoff guy is where the Leafs real needs are. What little depth they have at forward is amassed at centre and the left side, Stempniak and Mayers are the only RWs on he club.

  13. By Steve CANADA on Jun 29, 2009

    That’s what I get for checking championships on TSN.ca I guess they don’t think the World Championships is worth mentioning… and I’m guessing most NHL GM’s don’t either.

    Thanks for the correction mf37.

  14. By MARK UNITED STATES on Jun 29, 2009

    I don’t think the Flyers got fleeced. Chris Pronger was exactly what the Flyers lacked: Toughness fast puck moving defenceman. Lupul has an ugly contract extension that is going to cost around $4-4.5 mil. for the next 3 years. So for the ducks to take Lupul and his salary it was going to have to be a sweet pot. Sbisa really only made the Flyers because of injuries at the start of last season. He will most likely never be above a #4 defenseman on a roster. The 2 first round picks are tough especially if you draft like the Flyers have. Truthfully a #21 and 2 picks in the late first round(hopefully very late first round) are a crap shoot and we all know it. The Flyers have Giroux(for certain) & Van Riemsdyk(trying to make the team) joining young forwards:Mike Richards & Jeff Carter and they have Ryan Parent/Braydon Coburn & Matt Carle are all young defenseman. So none of these 1st round picks were going to make a difference in the next 3-4 years. If the Flyers don’t win the cup in the next 3 years than this trade is a failure and they will be in cap trouble; If the Flyers win the cup for the first time in 33 years this trade is a success.

  15. By Steve CANADA on Jun 29, 2009

    The Flyers have a cap problem. Arguing that Lupul’s contract was a bad deal is a bit odd considering he was scheduled to make $4.25 million for the next 4 years, he’s turning 26 and he just produced his 3rd 20+ goal season and scored 50 points.

    He’s only likely to improve from here, and despite what Flyers fans think, that contract really isn’t ridiculous.

    Sure it’s not a $5 million deal for Carter, or a $5.75 million deal for Richards, but it isn’t exactly bad.

    Consider the fact that they are losing 50 points from their forward ranks. I’m glad they have Giroux signed (for their sake) and that Van Riemsdyk is entering the NHL to fight for a spot on the team, but Giroux scored 9 goals last year, and had 27 points in 49 games.

    Van Riemsdyk played 7 regular season games for the Phantoms and had 1 goal and 1 assist. Then in the Calder Cup playoffs he played in all 4 of the Phantoms’ games, and had zero points and 2 penalty minutes.

    I think expecting him to suddenly morph into more than a 15 goal player is expecting a lot. This is a player that scored 17 goals and had 40 points in 36 games for U of New Hampshire last year, and 11 goals and 34 points in 31 games the year before.

    That’s amazingly comparable to the Leafs Viktor Stålberg from this past season, who actually produced 24 goals and 46 points in 39 games this season with Vermont. He then played in 2 playoff games for the Marlies and produced an assist. I don’t suddenly expect Stålberg to score 20+ goals in the NHL in his first year.

    Giroux only had 34 points in 33 games with the Phantoms, so again I’m not sure why we think he’ll suddenly be a 20+ goal guy in the NHL.

    Maybe Giroux or Van Riemsdyk replace the scoring in a year, or two, or three, but next season - which is the one I think we’re talking about here since it’s the only one Pronger is signed for at this point - the Flyers have lost a winger from their top 2 lines, and they won’t replace that scoring with an equivalent player internally.

    They also increased their payroll by $2 million, and they were already pretty close to the cap, which as far as I know only increased by $100,000 for next season.

    As of right now, the Flyers are sitting at about $53,400,000 against the cap which will be $56,800,000. They’re within $3.4 million of the cap, and if they plan on playing Van Riemsdyk he’s going to be making entry level money - so roughly $1 million between his salary and signing bonus. That puts the team at $54,400,000 roughly, so they’ve got $2.4 million to play with to replace Knuble and sign a backup goalie.

    Don’t get me wrong, I think it’s doable, but I think they’re playing with fire the way they’re building their team right up against it. I also think giving up 4 first round picks for 1 player is long term lunacy. But that’s just my opinion.

  16. By Dan CANADA on Jun 29, 2009

    I’ve gotta agree with Steve. Philly’s going to have it tough. Pronger’s got them over the barrel now, he can ask for whatever he wants and they pretty much have to give it to him. They just gave up a ton for him, so they aren’t going to let him walk. I think the Flyers have a good team going forward. Unless they move a big contract like Briere, they’re going to have a tough go when the cap goes down next year. The only reason it went up is because the players added 5% to the top which made it go up, otherwise it was heading down. Next year it will definitely be down. That’s why I hope the Leafs save some room for that.

  17. By Steve CANADA on Jun 29, 2009

    Oh and I forgot to mention that Braydon Coburn is an RFA after next season. Even if the Flyers only qualify him and take him to arbitration, he’s going to make at least the same amount, and given how well he has played for them over the past few years, I’m guessing he’s either getting a substantial raise or another team will offer him a lot more money.

    Either way, if the Flyers resign Pronger to a longer term deal, they’ll be right up against the cap again a year from now.

    They basically need to move one of, or a few of, Carle, Jones, Gagne or Briere in order to just be competitive a year or so from now. The weird part is, they locked Briere up for a long time when he was an UFA, so it’s like admitting you made a big mistake in signing him.

    Personally I think ditching Briere is stupid since he leads the NHL in playoff goals since the lockout. He’s obviously a very good offensive player, and it would deal a blow to the offense to take him out of it.

    No matter what, the Flyers are going to have to give something up to keep Pronger, and I think in the end you’re right back where you started… too much of one thing, not enough of another. They’ll end up having lots of toughness and not enough scoring if they keep swinging things this way.

    I don’t think it made much sense either way… and I sincerely doubt the team wins a Stanley Cup with Ray Emery as their starting goalie.

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