Word From A Gazillion Readers - Steve Simmons Is A Marginal Journalist At Best
September 14th, 2008 by StevePerusing some tidbits on le interweb about the Leafs, and I noticed a few choice words penned by one of the most widely distributed sports journalists in Canada (if someone could explain to me how Steve Simmons has held on to his job this long I’d like to hear it).
“The more you analyze the Maple Leafs roster, the more you wonder how John Ferguson lasted 3-1/2 seasons in his disastrous reign as general manager. Didn’t any of his bosses see this mess coming sooner?”
Yeah, I mean how could any management type NOT realize that a team with the following players would completely pancake last season:
Tomas Kaberle (3 time NHL All-Star, three consecutive 50+ point seasons); Bryan McCabe (2nd team NHL All-Star and Norris Trophy Finalist); Pavel Kubina (NHL All-Star, Stanley Cup Winner, and one time NHL leader for D goals in a season); Mats Sundin (9 time NHL All-Star, 2 time NHL 2nd All-Star team member, 12 consecutive seasons with 70+ points, and 12 consecutive seasons with 25+ goals); Darcy Tucker (3 consecutive 20+ goal seasons); Jason Blake (4 consecutive 20+ goal seasons, with his most recent being a 40 goal season); Andrew Raycroft (37 game winner, former Calder Trophy Winner)
Pancake so badly they’d buy out two of them, and trade away another, while letting their leader and captain wander the desolate spaces of his mind searching for answers regarding whether or not he prefers fishing and playing poker to lacing them up for the Leafs. Obviously this should have occurred to everybody.
Oh wait… I’m not sure this occurred to Simmons either:
“To date, you can make a sound argument in favour of Ferguson…
The pro-Ferguson camp will point to the hiring of coach Paul Maurice, the acquisition of goalie Andrew Raycroft, the free-agent signings of Michael Peca, Hal Gill and Pavel Kubina, and the restructuring of the front office as reasons to believe Ferguson is growing on the job.
You can add in his altered demeanour, his confidence, the way he carries himself publicly, and it’s clear he no longer wishes to be the punchline for every comedian on morning radio.“
- November 24th, 2006, Steve Simmons
To be fair to Simmons, he was actually slamming Ferguson in the article, and pointing out that he over-paid for checking forwards and Defense - but I don’t think he was holding up Raycroft as a problem 2 years ago. As for all the “mistakes” Ferguson made - most of them were gone by the time he left his position as GM.
“In his first summer, post-lockout, Ferguson signed Jason Allison, Eric Lindros and Alexander Khavanov and the only trade of consequence he made brought him Jeff O’Neill.
Those moves vaulted the Leafs from a 103-point playoff team to a team that missed the playoffs. In baseball parlance, he ended up 0-for-4 in significant transactions.”
- November 24th, 2006, Steve Simmons
Allison, Khavanov, and Lindros were all gone after 1 season, O’neill was gone after 2. Hal Gill ended up playing an important role for Pittsburgh in it’s run to the Stanley Cup Finals, and Pavel Kubina is one of the few remaining players on the Leafs that played well for most of last season. Andrew Raycroft was never a positive, despite matching the team’s single season wins mark.
Even Simmons didn’t seem to “see it coming” until the writing was already on the wall. By that point, obviously the management DID see it coming. If Simmons were to check the Leafs roster out now, he would find at least a few solid players that Ferguson brought in. Anton Stralman, Jiri Tlusty, Nikolai Kulemin, Vesa Toskala, Pavel Kubina, James Reimer, Justin Pogge… wait… what’s that? POGGE ISN’T A GOOD PROSPECT ANYMORE????
“How dumb is this: Cliff Fletcher watched the Marlies play nine times last season. Never once saw Justin Pogge play. If you were the GM, wouldn’t you have done something about that? … Word from at least one scout outside the Leafs organization: Pogge now is considered a marginal NHL prospect at best…”
What exactly makes Pogge a “marginal NHL prospect at best”? Actually, if you consider the fact that he played in FEWER games in 2007-08, than he did in 2006-07, and came away with 7 more wins… while improving both his GAA and Save Percentage, I mean… that would scare me off if I was an NHL GM looking for a goaltending prospect. Perhaps this means his ability to stop pucks has worsened drastically over the past 2 seasons? Probably not. I know! Let’s compare him to the other top goalies of his draft class! I bet we’ll get a better idea of what the problem is that way. So let’s see… how did Pogge and his peers do at the AHL level in 2007-08?
Justin Pogge (2004; 90th overall): 26-10-4 (.650 Win%), 2.34 GAA, .908 SV%, 4 shut outs in 41 GP.
Tuuka Rask (2005; 21st overall): 27-13-2 (.642 Win%), 2.33 GAA, .905 SV%, 1 shut out in 45 GP.
Devan Dubnyk (2004; 14th overall): 9-17-0 (.346 Win%), 3.12 GAA, .904 SV%, 0 shut outs in 33 GP.
Al Montoya (2004; 6th overall): 24-14-3 (.585 Win%), 2.55 GAA, .909 SV%, 1 shut out in 45 GP.
Marek Schwarz (2004; 17th overall): 14-14-2 (.467 Win%), 2.79 GAA, .891 SV%, 0 shut outs in 33 GP.
Cory Schneider (2004; 26th overall): 21-12-2 (.600 Win%), 2.28 GAA, .916 SV%, 3 shut outs in 36 GP.
David Shantz (2004; 37th overall): 1-10-1 (.083 Win%), 4.07 GAA, .863 SV%, 0 shut outs in 14 GP.
Justin Peters (2004; 38th overall): 7-3-0 (.700 Win%), 2.70 GAA, .904 SV%, 0 shut outs in 11 GP.
Jeff Glass (2004; 89th overall): 15-20-4 (.385 Win%), 2.88 GAA, .913 SV%, 2 shut outs in 45 GP.
Dan LaCosta (2004; 93rd overall): 9-2-3 (.643 Win%), 2.12 GAA, .932 SV%, 1 shut out in 15 GP.
Carey Price (2005; 5th overall): 24-12-3 (at the NHL level no less, .615 Win%), 2.56 GAA, .920 SV%, 3 shut outs in 41 NHL GP.
Tyler Plante (2005; 32nd overall): 6-16-1 (.261 Win%), 3.56 GAA, .885 SV%, 0 shut outs in 25 GP.
Jeff Frazee (2005; 38th overall): 6-7-0 (in the NCAA with U of Minnesota, .462 SV%), 2.93 GAA, .890 SV%, 1 shut out in 14 GP.
Ondrej Pavelec (2005; 41st overall): 33-16-3 (.635 Win%), 2.77 GAA, .911 SV%, 2 shut outs in 52 GP.
Ok SO - that’s probably enough goaltending prospects of a similar age to get a decent read on where Pogge measures up to the rest of his peers. So obviously the cream of the crop is Carey Price, who is clearly ahead of the rest of the group, having made an NHL franchise as a starter. Price carried some great numbers all the way into the NHL playoffs… before sort of crapping the bed on his way OUT of the NHL playoffs.
After Price, there’s obviously a sort of second tier in the prospects, made up of Pogge, Rask, LaCosta, Pavelec, Schneider, Peters, and Montoya. Out of that group, 4 of them were the starters for their national teams at the World Juniors, and all distinguished themselves quite handily. The part I have a hard time understanding is how the goalie who had the best win percentage in that group with more than 20 AHL starts, the most shut outs, as well as the 3rd best GAA, and a save percentage over .900 is considered a “marginal prospect at best”. His numbers compare quite favourably to ALL of his peers.
I do not doubt that Pogge would be shell shocked if he joined the Leafs for the upcoming season, but that has a lot more to do with the nature of the team’s current squad in front of him… not his skill level. If the Leafs give him more starts next year at the AHL level, and groom him for the back up role next season, looking towards him entering as a regular in 2 seasons time, that makes sense to me.
Oh and one last comparison. The last goalie the Leafs developed in their own minor league system that spent significant time with the parent club was Felix Potvin. In his one full season in the AHL (1991-92), where he was the second option behind Damien Rhodes, Potvin went 18-10-6, with a 2.93 GAA, and a .908 SV%, and 2 shut outs. He was named the Rookie of the Year and Goalie of the year, before being promoted to the Leafs for the 1992-93 season. Goaltending was far less impressive in the AHL in the early 90’s so obviously Pogge’s numbers can’t be compared straight up, but the winning percentage comparison alone has some merit.
Steve Simmons needs to do more than ask for the opinions of scouts from OTHER teams what they think of Leaf prospects. Personally I think this might be a case of talking down the Leafs prospects so they become available via trade at a reduced price. If you can convince the Leafs that their players all suck, you might be able to grab something nice in the fire sale!
Oh well. I’ll post something more substantial on the Leafs rookie tournament early next week.
Posted in Player Analysis, Prospects, Uncategorized
20 Responses to “Word From A Gazillion Readers - Steve Simmons Is A Marginal Journalist At Best”
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 15, 2008
Steve, IMO, the biggest folly of JFJ’s reign was buying high, and settling for low. Blake, Kubina, Raycroft etc all had good season prior to being signed, but they were over-paid, as UFA’s (or over compensated via trade). This handcuffed his ability to both ice a truly deep team, and develop good prospects. I worry that the trend has not altogether ceased, considering the recent signings of Hagman, and Finger, two new UFA’s coming off of career ears, and signed to contribute more of the same.
This team has been mismanaged, and considering the Leafs missed the post season the 2 years prior (with much the same roster), it wasn’t quantum physics to see another miss coming last season.
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 15, 2008
As for Pogge, the team around him has a lot to do with his stats. The fact he played little in the post season, and played fewer games last season is an indictment on his progress. Pogge was once heralded in equal terms as Price, and that has slipped significantly. Simmons is by no means the only one saying Price is no longer the top tier prospect he was once considered to be, and that is another blow to the “rebuilding” Leafs, and the choices of the Leafs management.
By Steve
on Sep 15, 2008
Ok,let me get this straight. His win percentage of .650 was a product of the “team around him” … even though the guy they played in the Playoffs (Scott Clemmensen) had a 23-14-2 record (.590 Win%) with 1 shut out in 40 games played. He also had a 2.44 GAA and a .910 save percentage.
So other than the Save Percentage, Pogge was significantly better than the other starter on the team. He had a way better win%, he had more shut outs, and he had a lower GAA. The save percentage difference was 0.2% and Pogge let in 2 fewer goals in 1 more start.
The fact that Clemmensen was given the start in the Playoffs was basically a complete idiot move on the part of Greg Gilbert in a misguided attempt to drive as deep into the playoffs as possible - irrespective of any development considerations - which I personally attribute to a lack of clear leadership with the parent organization.
Clemmensen finished the regular season on a hot streak, and Pogge had a bad game near the finish - voila, Clemmensen was the starter.
It’s not like Pogge’s numbers in the AHL playoffs were bad either. He only saw action in 4 games, and he had a 2.09 GAA, and a .918 SV% in 172 minutes of action. If you honestly want to argue that he didn’t get starts in the playoffs because he “regressed” then feel free, but his numbers don’t back that logic up. Clemmensen had a 3.02 GAA and a .902 SV% with an 8-9 record in the Calder Cup playoffs last year. I would argue that the only thing keeping Pogge out of the net until the end was stubborness on the part of Gilbert… but you might have read my postings on that last spring.
He played well when given the opportunity, and chalking everything up to the “team” around him is a bit unreasonable.
Theoretically one could argue that Tuukka Rask’s numbers were a product of the team in front of him. Providence finished first overall in the AHL last season with 117 points. The Providence Bruins also gave up only 3 more goals than the Marlies last year.
Rask started 53 games for Ilves Tampere in Finland 2 years ago, and then dropped to 45 starts for Providence last year, and went 27-13-2 with a 2.33 GAA and a .905 SV%. That’s 8 fewer starts, Pogge only started 7 fewer. Then in the playoffs Rask had 10 games played, with a 2.18 GAA and a .908 SV%. Does that mean Tuukka Rask regressed and is now a “marginal NHL prospect at best”??
Somehow I doubt it. You’re going to have to come up with a more concrete argument than that one.
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 15, 2008
I’ve never claimed to be a Pogge expert, I’ve just put your argument to the smell test. It seems funny how everything that has gone wrong, or said negatively with the Leafs is due to stupidity either on the part of management, or the writer, but not the players skill or talent…
Pogge has been scaled down as a prospect by a number of pundits.
Pogge did not play the majority of games in the AHL, or big games.
This is all because he’s a great prospect that everyone but you has over looked?
Sometimes stats are just that, numbers, that do not tell the whole story. What is that whole story? THAT I’d like to know, it seems to me there’s a good question to explore.
But acording to you, he’s doing great, and right on track…
Rah, rah, shish-boom-bah….gooooo Leafs.
By Steve
on Sep 15, 2008
Gerald - you’re being disingenuous and you know it.
I have been more than reasonable with respect to the majority of the Leafs prospects. I’m well aware that Robbie Earl, Jeremy Williams, Darryl Boyce, Kris Newbury, Ben Ondrus, John Mitchell, and many other Leafs prospects are not likely to slot in as top line players any time in the future.
In reference to the play of Pogge specifically though, I’d be very curious to see where you’ve read his being “scaled down” as a prospect. I actually have watched his play over the past 4 years, and he was far more controlled in his net last season, and relied far more on his positioning and size than he did in his first season in the AHL.
The point I was making in respect to his consideration as a prospect (or was attempting to) is two fold. 1) I don’t think his play has warranted any “decrease” in expectations on the part of scouts or the media. 2) If there is a reason for the downplaying of original expectations, it is probably a result of the fact that Canadian media tends to over-sell the impact of the World Juniors. The fact that Pogge played well at the WJC and won the gold medal is a big deal, but it doesn’t automatically make him a superstar.
That being said, it IS an indicator of his ability to compete at a high level. Saying he did not play the “majority” of games in the AHL is a bit ridiculous, when you can see as well as I can based on the numbers I gave as evidence that he played over 40 games last year, which puts him right around where Montoya, Rask, Schneider, and Glass are in terms of playing time.
As for not playing in the big games… Greg Gilbert was making the decision whether or not to start him. I feel perfectly fine blaming management and coaching for NOT starting him in big games. I don’t think Pogge did anything to warrant NOT being started. In fact… if he did do something to warrant that, then why are they giving him the lion’s share of games in the coming season? If you don’t think he should see the ice much, or you think he’s taken a step back, then why throw his name out there again this year?
Basically you’re making suppositions based on things that you (and I) have no actual detail on. You’re saying other people scaled him down - if they’re people like Steve Simmons… then consider the freaking source already. This is the same Steve Simmons that insisted Mats Sundin had a serious hip injury that was going to end his career… and we all know how that worked out last year.
I fail to see how my thoughts that the Leafs MIGHT attain 88 points or so during the regular season, and that many of their prospects aren’t complete duds, despite what the press keeps telling you, are so over the top and fan-boyish.
People in glass houses (seriously? “Canada’s team”? get the hell over the Sens already… didn’t they get bounced in the first round last year?) shouldn’t throw stones.
If I recall, you’re touting Alexandre Picard as a “tough” checking D-man based on some anecdotal evidence… despite the fact that most “pundits” have consistently described him as an offensive first player that isn’t noted for his defensive toughness.
If you seriously think I sit in a vacuum and don’t actually watch Pogge play any games and just look up numbers… you could at least refer to the postings from last year’s AHL playoffs where I actually was clipping in screen shots from the game… that I watched in its entirety. He played well when given the chance… despite what you and the scouts seem to be thinking.
By Steve
on Sep 15, 2008
Oh… and do the Sens actually televise Binghamton games? Or do you drive down to Binghamton to watch them play?
By caveman
on Sep 15, 2008
Don’t let this guy get to you. He’s just doing it to see if he can get you going. Why, I don’t know, it looks like he enjoys arguing.
Your stats back up what you’ve said, he’s brought nothing but his opinion, and that’s fine, he’s intitled to it, but it doesn’t mean too much to me when it has bias to it.
By Steve
on Sep 15, 2008
That’s true caveman, but I too enjoy arguing so it’s fine.
As for the “smell test” I’m not sure which of the stats I’m mentioning place any “blame” on the writer or the management. What I’m trying to say is that Pogge hasn’t particularly regressed as far as any rational analysis is concerned. I’m not saying anyone is responsible for Pogge’s “regression” because I don’t actually think such a regression has occurred. It’s hard for me to blame someone for something that hasn’t happened… but I assume you’ll find a way to portray me as refusing to accept the lack of skill on the part of the Leafs… or the Marlies… or whoever I’m in denial about.
Ok and how’s this for a stat:
Number of games with 1 goal against or less:
Pogge: 14
Montoya: 13
Schneider: 13 (Schneider went on a crazy tear in February and March, where he let in 12 goals in 11 games… aside from that he was pretty average)
Rask: 15
Pavelec: 15 (Pavelec was on fire in February and March, allowing 20 goals in a single 15 game stretch)
Here’s the interesting thing though - Pogge alternated with Clemmensen regularly all season, except for 1 stretch from December 26th to January 10th. During that stretch where he was the starter, he was 6-1-0, with 2 shut outs.
One could easily argue that it’s hard to maintain consistency with no serious string of play as the number 1 guy.
Considering he only played as the top starter for 7 straight games at one point during the season, it’s impressive he managed as many 1 goal or less games as he did.
In comparison, Pavelec and Rask both played more than double the number of games that their backups did… with many stretches of uninterrupted starts. Personally I think if Pogge gets more consistent and regular starts he will grow in confidence and should demonstrate a solid progression in his play.
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 15, 2008
Pogge has slipped in the Leafs prospect ranking, from 1st to 4th, as per HF, since April/08.
“Statistically, Pogge cut his GAA from 3.03 in 2006 to 2.34 last season. Behind a much-improved team his win total rose from 19 to 26 and the ever important save percentage jumped from .898 to .908 last year.”
That supports my view that the team had a lot to do with his statistical improvement.
This season will be the most critical of his career, as he’s predicted to get 60 starts, and be in line for back-up duty next season.
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 15, 2008
Oh, and those stats, what was the calibre of competition, and how did the other teams stack up from a defensve perspective? Without that info it’s all feathers no chicken.
By caveman
on Sep 15, 2008
Any chance that the team faired better because Pogge was better? Probably not, just because Pogge is on his way down and the Marlies are much improved. It would never happen that way.
Why would a goalie getting better have anything to do with a team achieving more wins? That’s totally crazy
I can’t believe it was just spun that way. Hilarious.
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 15, 2008
Caveman, so let me get this straight, I am now supposed to assume that the goaltender who only started about half of the games, and was sat out for much of the post season was the reason the Marlies finished atop the standings?
So the coach is an idiot for not playing Pogge, yet Pogge’s the reason the team was improved. Yeah, that’s sound about right…
Like I said, rah, rah, shish-boom-bah, goooooo Leafs!
By Steve
on Sep 15, 2008
Caliber of competition?
His record against teams that made the playoffs was 8-6-3 (.471) with 1 shut out. He also had a 2.56 GAA, and .902 SV% against an average of 25.8 shots a game.
Tuukka Rask’s record against playoff teams was 14-7-1 with 0 shut outs - but he was also pulled in 2 other games that didn’t count towards his totals - so you could conceivably argue that in his starts the team was 14-9-1 (.583 Win%)… His GAA was 2.59, and he had a .903 SV%, facing an average of 26.8 shots a game.
The win total is perhaps a bit misleading when one considers that they basically allowed the same number of goals against and had almost identical save percentages vs. similar shot totals.
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 16, 2008
Thanks Steve, that rounded it out better.
But it also seems to show that Rask not only fared better vs t0p teams then Pogge, but also played vs. top teams more often then Pogge. This would potentially inflate Pogges numbers, as his competition was weaker then that faced by Rask. Suddenly Pogges better stats don’t carry near the weight they attributed, in terms of comparing player to player.
By Neal
on Sep 16, 2008
Gerald give us a break please.
Pogge slipping in the Leafs prospect ranking, from 1st to 4th, as per HF, since April/08 means nothing.
That would be like saying Mark Messier wasn’t any good because he wasn’t a line 1 center like Wayne. He slipped down the depth chart to line 2, ohhhhh no.
Are any of the players that jumped ahead of Pogge goalies? Ummmmm NO. So the smell test says maybe there is a little more upside to the 3 players ahead of him right now considering Toskala and Cujo have the NHL jobs locked up.
Plus my fav part of it all is your source that you didn’t take the time to read. Last line from the HF article is “Justin Pogge, Tlusty and Kulemin have done nothing this season to diminish their stock as potential viable NHLers”.
Pogge is also ranked 6th among goalies on HF’s Top 50 Prospects. So this “Pogge has been scaled down as a prospect by a number of pundits”, which pundits are these? Sources please.
By Steve
on Sep 16, 2008
Ok, first thing I need to say before I get into this. I made a mistake on the Rask stats. His actual record was 13-8-1. I gave him a 4-0 record against Manchester, but he was actually 3-1-0.
Ummm Gerald - Pogge’s actual goaltending NUMBERS GAA and SV% were basically IDENTICAL to Rask’s. He had more shut outs, a better goals against average, and a virtually identical save percentage.
The fact that Providence won more games against playoff teams might seem like a huge distinction but 3 of the 13 wins came in his 4 starts against Manchester (39 wins) - who finished with the worst record of any team to make the playoffs in the AHL last season.
Oh and Pogge didn’t play against Manchester at all last season. But he did play against Quad City (38 wins) and Hamilton (36 wins) - the two next best teams in the AHL after Manchester. If you add in his games against Quad City and Hamilton, Pogge actually had a 12-7-3 record, a 2.63 GAA, a .901 SV% against 26.59 shots a game.
If the win percentage is the issue it jumps to .545 with the games against Quad City and Hamilton… so he’s capable of beating “good” teams. His GAA climbed higher with those games, but obviously you don’t think having a lower GAA is particularly relevant and the difference between a SV% of .901 and .903 is still inconsequential (over the 585 shots Pogge faced it would amount to one less goal against).
Alternatively, we could drop the 4 Manchester games from Rask’s record. That would bring his numbers to 10-7-1 with zero shut outs. His GAA would then shift to 2.72, and his SV% improves to .906 against 29.1 shots a game (obviously Manchester was helping his GAA, and taking fewer shots)
Now, I assume we can tweak these stats however you like, but nothing I say will change your perspective on this so I don’t really see much added value here either way.
Suffice it to say, I don’t really think having virtually identical GAA and SV% numbers against playoff teams indicates that Rask is playing better. A 3-1 record against the weakest playoff team in the AHL does help his win totals a bit though. Either way… this isn’t a big deal. Think what you want, and we’ll see how the chips fall going forwards.
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 17, 2008
Neal, I never said he wasn’t going to make the NHL did I? So the statement from HF saying he’s still an NHL prospect is a moot point. I said his stock was slipping, and it is, as was evidenced by his being passed by 2 players, after revieweing the most recent season. Would you say Tlusty looked great, or at least great enough to jump ahead of Pogge? I think not. Kulemin…, the guy hasn’t even played yet.
HF typically rates goaltenders higher as prospects, not lower, based upon the difficulty in finding this position as a true prospect, so really, this could be artificially inflating his standing.
Ranked 6th among goaltenders, great, your point being? How many true goaltender prospects are their, and is being 6th on that very short list really a good thing? I doubt it. BTW, when was that list last updated?
Rask was rated #8 over-all (2nd among goaltenders), Pogge 21 st overall.
As well, Kulemin was behind him at 42nd, and neither Tlusty nor Schenn (proving it’s not updated) are even on that list, so where would Pogge really be now, if the latest team rankings have him dropped among just the Leafs, who are not known as being a particularly deep team?
By Steve
on Sep 17, 2008
Ok there’s an issue with all of this Gerald.
HF rankings from April were posted on the 27th. That was halfway through the Marlies 1st round series against San Antonio.
The most recent rankings were posted on September 8th.
Over that time span, Pogge has done NOTHING to seriously decrease his ranking. Tlusty played some AHL playoff games, with middling success. Kulemin was invited to the World Championship Training Camp for Russia in Quebec City, but failed to make the squad. Luke Schenn was drafted.
Frankly nothing changed drastically over the summer. The idea that Pogge is suddenly marginal at best is completely ridiculous. Here is what HF had to say about him back at the end of April:
Here’s what HF had to say on the 8th of September… 3 months later:
So basically they dropped him in the rankings because Leafs and Marlies management refused to use him in the playoffs. Which brings us right back to your rampant and sort of useless speculation on WHY they chose to not use him. Considering they let Scott Clemmensen walk in the off-season, and they’ve already said they are handing Pogge the reins… the idea that he was a problem in the dressing room is completely ludicrous. Basically they were morons for not playing him at the time when given the opportunity. I see no problem with making that statement… and no I’m NOT blaming them for there being something wrong with Pogge; I’m blaming them for their being something wrong with THEM.
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 18, 2008
When did I ever say “marginal at best”? Why do you attribute to me statements that were never made? Disagree, fine, but don’t attempt to strengthen your argument by making false claims as to my statements.
So Pogge’s alright, and once again, everyone has overlooked something you see…wow, must be nice! Why are you just blogging? Seems to me the Leafs need a man of your superior vision, hells, apparently you can even read minds!
I also didn’t say anything about his behaviour in the dressing room, but still, you attribute to me this “Which brings us right back to your rampant and sort of useless speculation on WHY they chose to not use him…the idea that he was a problem in the dressing room is completely ludicrous.”
Why do you accuse me of saying these things?
As I’ve already stated, he is being given his big chance, and when the season is over, we’ll know for sure.
But it does nothing to hide the fact that while others of his era were playing in the NHL, he wasn’t even entrusted to play in the AHL…and your convenient “stupidity” theory not withstanding, that says a lot, but yeah, I’m just posting “rampant, useless speculation” as to why he didn’t dress in the post season, vs your obviously bullet proof facts…wow!
By Steve
on Sep 18, 2008
Gerald - In response to what you said to caveman:
Justin Pogge’s numbers in 2006-07: 19-25-2, .896 SV%, 3.03 GAA
Justin Pogge’s numbers in 2007-08: 26-10-4, .908 SV%, 2.34 GAA
So let’s see… he gave up .70 fewer goals every game, stopped a higher percentage of shots, and went from being 6 games UNDER .500, to being 16 games OVER .500 (in a points perspective). That is a swing of 22 games. The Marlies went from being 34-39-2-5 to being 50-21-3-6… which is a swing from being 5 games below .500 to 29 games above .500, which is a difference of 34 games. If Pogge is responsible for 22 of the 34 game swing… then I think one could REASONABLY argue that his improved play is a sizable part of the improvement in the overall team. Perhaps he’s not solely responsible, but he definitely played a role. It is a team sport after all.
Oh and what the hell does the post-season have to do with an improvement in the regular season standings??? Nothing.
I never said you said he was marginal at best… I said STEVE FREAKING SIMMONS SAID IT IN THE ORIGINAL QUOTE. What the hell man. Nobody said “when Gerald called him a marginal prospect at best”… But those exact words were in the ORIGINAL QUOTE IN THE ORIGINAL POSTING. I’m not trying to strengthen my argument by making false claims about your statements. I’m referring back to the ORIGINAL ARTICLE IN THE TORONTO SUN THAT WAS THE BASIS FOR THE ENTIRE CONVERSATION!
I never claimed to read minds… just the Toronto Sun. You need to quit it with the inferiority complex already. I know Sens fans are hard done by, but this is a bit pathetic.
As for useless speculation on reasons WHY… you don’t actually offer any reasons. I just proffered the most commonly attributed one that arose during the post-season last year. You didn’t mention it. The fact that I brought up the one reason typically trotted out by fans and media alike during the playoff run (that you apparently didn’t pay any attention to… despite bringing it up repeatedly), and pointed out that it logically didn’t make any sense.
What others of his “era” were playing in the NHL? Do you actually know how many goalies played NHL games last year that were drafted in his year or after? 3. 3 goalies. Bernier, Rask and Price. Bernier lasted all of 4 games (with the LA Kings for chrissakes) before being sent back to junior, Price is obviously a phenom (at this point) and Rask hasn’t really shown he’s amazingly better than Pogge, but he was the best goalie in their system when Manny Fernandez and Tim Thomas both went down to injury in Boston.
The Bruins had no other goalies with significant NHL experience in their system. That doesn’t make him an AMAZING prospect.
Anyway… we’re right back to the ridiculous personal wounding you seem to take whenever these debates go on for too long. You tend to infer personal attacks when none are made, and then lash out in some sort of defensive stance. I’m nipping this one in the bud before it gets out of hand.