Antrogynous
September 4th, 2008 by Steve
ənəs/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[an-troj-uh-nuhs] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation | 1. | being both good and bad at various points in one’s NHL career. |
| 2. | having both physically strong and extremely fragile characteristics. |
| 3. | having an ambiguous hockey identity. |
| 4. | neither clearly tough nor clearly weak and/or brittle in appearance: the antrogynous look of many hockey stars. |
; 1999-2003; Serious Knee and Shoulder Injuries]—Related forms
Kidding aside, Antropov is obviously going to be a topic of discussion for a large chunk of this season. Of all the Leafs currently on the roster, he had the highest point total last season, and yet he’s the 9th highest on the salary totem pole in Leaf land, making a paltry $2.05 million this year.
In addition to that, he is also an unrestricted free agent at season’s end… so he is likely due a hefty pay raise. Which is leading some to the point of discussing whether he should be dealt to obtain prospects in return, while his value is higher than it has ever been.
I see a few flaws with that argument. Firstly, while his value is high, it is not as high as many think it to be. He would not fetch much on the open market for exactly the reasons just described. He is going to be an unrestricted free agent at season’s end, which makes him a pure rental. He is more fragile than many players in the NHL, which makes him an unreliable rental at that. That being said, his low salary for this season means many teams that are close to the edge of their cap, could foreseeably add his salary, without pushing themselves over the edge for this season in particular.
Of course, since we’re pretty far from the trading deadline, the teams that might be interested in adding such a player are meer murky images on the horizon. Despite that, I don’t have much to discuss at this exact moment (the Sundin saga bores the crap out of me frankly), so I figured why not explore Antropov’s comparables, and try to see what he might be worth on the open market next off-season. Once we have an idea of how much he’s likely to cost, we’ll get a better handle on whether the Leafs should bring him back or not.
Antropov has never played more than 72 games in a season. He would have last season if not for a suspension due to a disagreement with an official. Either way though, having an average number of games played per season that hovers at about 68 games or so is not exactly perfect. He does play a lot of minutes, playing roughly the same amount as Martin Erat, Radim Vrbata, Brad Boyes, and JP Dumont did last season on Right Wing. He was 16th in the NHL for PK time amongst right wingers, roughly comparable to Marion Hossa, Jere Lehtinen, Pascal Dupuis and Ian Laperriere. He had exactly the same number of even strength minutes per game as Alexei Kovalev, and very similar times to Milan Hejduk and Martin Erat. On the Power Play he saw similar minutes to Vrbata, Lehtinen, and Pominville, and Lupul.
Given those minutes, and those players seeing comparable ice time, how did he fare production wise? Well he had 39 even strength points last year, which puts him roughly on par with Martin Erat, Ales Hemsky, and ahead of Radim Vrbata and Marion Hossa. At the other end, his PP point production (16 points) put him on par with JP Dumont, Radim Vrbata, and Johan Franzen… pretty far off the pace set by the likes of Alex Kovalev and Jarome Iginla. On the PK he had virtually no SH points, but he is fairly responsible defensively.
Overall he ended up with the same number of points (56) as Vrbata did last season, in the same vicinity as Corey Perry, Mike Knuble, and Milan Hejduk. It might surprise Leafs fans to read his name in the same breath with the players I keep mentioning but he was certainly running in the same circles last season.
In fact, every time Howard Berger blathers on about how the Leafs have zero talent on offense, ask yourself if you’d consider JP Dumont, Ales Hemsky, Radim Vrbata, Martin Erat, Johan Franzen, Mike Knuble, or Corey Perry to be “talent on offense” and then remind yourself that Antropov had pretty damn similar numbers.
Ok so where does that leave things from a contract standpoint? Well here’s how the aforementioned players are compensated, from highest to lowest on the pay scale:
Corey Perry (ANA) $5.325 million
Martin Erat (NAS) $4.5 million
Ales Hemsky (EDM) $4.1 million
JP Dumont (NAS) $4 million
Brad Boyes (STL) $4 million
Jere Lehtinen (DAL) $4 million
Milan Hejduk (COL) $3.9 million
Radim Vrbata (TAM) $3 million
Mike Knuble (PHI) $2.8 million
Nik Antropov (TOR) $2.08 million
Johan Franzen (DET) $941,667
So yeah, Antropov is due a sizable pay increase, considering the average for that group is slightly above $3.86 million yearly. But honestly? Antropov has never had a 30 goal season, he’s had one solid year, and he needs some more solid play under his belt before teams (including the Leafs) will jump at offering him $4 million or so a year. But if he keeps up the solid run of play, that’s roughly the going rate for a player of his caliber.
Can the Leafs afford a $4 million dollar forward? Yes. Should they pay Antropov that much? Why not? He’s been here longer than most of the other players on the team, and he’s considered a solid citizen in the dressing room and outside in the community. He’ll help develop young Russian players, being a solid link for them linguistically, and through his own experiences adjusting to play in North America as an 18 year old. They have over $15 million dollars in cap space heading into next year, and a lot depends on how Antropov plays this season. If he produces, and becomes more of a leader for the club, his play could go a long way to making him an even more integral member of the franchise.
I’ve long supported Antropov’s play, and greatly appreciated his repeated efforts to return from injury again and again. He’s produced at a consistently high level when in the lineup, and if he can stay healthy, I think he’s a good player to have on the club going forwards. I also don’t see how trading him for anything less than a top prospect or top 10 draft pick would be worthwhile. He’s a top 10 pick himself, and he’s developed into a pretty good hockey player… a lot of draft picks and prospects DON’T do that. Why the Leafs would give up on a player that is 28 years old, when he’s basically entering the prime of his career is beyond me. Yes they’re not on the cusp of winning anything significant, but they do need SOMETHING to bridge the gap. They need players that fans can associate continuity with, and it won’t hurt the club to move the mantle on to a more mature Antropov in the future.
I’m a big Antropov fan though, so I’m a tad biased. Let us know what you think.
28 Responses to “Antrogynous”
By Marc
on Sep 4, 2008
ANtropov’s best value for the LEafs in their re-build is to be moved at the trade deadline, in 3 seasons the return they’d get for him (which would be pretty high) would be a bigger impact to the team once they are re-built and trying to contend.
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 4, 2008
I think with the struggle this team will face offensively, the prospective return on Antropov will diminish with every NHL game played. I’d move him now, if anyone should any GM produce a decent offer, say a high 1st round pick. But something tells me the Leafs won’t even be able to lose well either. I say either win, or lose, but don’t get stuck in the middle.
By Koopa Kid
on Sep 4, 2008
I don’t think Antro’s moving anywhere as long as Cliff is GM, and maybe not even then. From the sounds of it Fletcher’s looking to build his offense around Antropov, and assuming there’s a plan in place Nik should still be a capable player by the time the Leafs can compete again (barring injury).
To be fair, the return we would get from any sane GM would not be enough to give him up, his injury history and point production to date just don’t justify can’t-miss prospect material coming back.
By outsidethecrease
on Sep 5, 2008
At the trade deadline, the return would be huge (assuming he stays healthy).
A massive second line center like him is the exact asset contending teams look for to propel them into the playoff push.
He’s going to demand money that he’s not worth next summer (and someone will give it to him).
Leaf fans have to make sure to not fall into the Tucker/McCabe trap again and fall in love with him and demand the team re-signs him, because he’s a fan favorite, look how that turned out with the other two.
Look at the deals that were made at the 2007 deadline, two big players that play like ANtropov (and are older so should recieve less for them) Bertuzzi and Guerin were traded. Guerin got 2 mid level prospects and a first rounder in return, Bertuzzi got the Red Wings’ top prospect (a future top liner in Matthias) and a draft pick.
If he stay health until then, Antropov’s return will be at least a first rounder and a prospect at the deadline.
By Chemmy on Sep 5, 2008
Man, you and PPP should star nikantropovfanclub.blogspot.com.
By PPP
on Sep 5, 2008
Chemmy, maybe you should just get on board with reality.
Antro is awesome. Will he get the return (or media coverage) that a player of his ilk deserves? No, because he is a Leaf and that automatically makes him shit.
That, along with his history with the club and the fact that they stood by him while he was recovering from his various injuries, is what I think will keep his contract from hitting the high end of the pay scale that you’ve identified. Is that naive? Not really, Antro’s shown his loyalty already. Last summer he could have signed elsewhere but he chose to stay in TO.
And like Steve said, his experience and his background will be huge for guys like Grabovski, Kulemin, Vorobiev (if he ever comes over) and any Russian/CIS player making his way to Toronto.
By outsidethecrease
on Sep 5, 2008
If he becomes an UFA next summer he will walk, some GM is going to throw big money at him (one always does) and Cliff has shown he is willing to let those guys go if need be.
I don’t understand why you’d be so against getting a first rounder and a decent prospect for a guy who could be lost for nothing, and likely won’t be a factor down the road once the Leafs actually have a chance at contention.
The biggest long term impact Antropov would have on the team is to be moved at the deadline. The same way it was with Kaberle last trade deadline.
Cliff had a deal in place that would have seen our future captain and top line center for a decade, Jeff Carter come here from Toronto but Kaberle wouldn’t waive his no trade clause.
THese guys will mroe benefit the long term growth of the club by being moved for more assest while their value is high.
By G
on Sep 5, 2008
Have you guys all gone full retard? Stop drinking the blue and white kool-aid, take offf the Leafs tinted glasses and realize this. Antropov is not worth near anything you are all claiming. He is brittle, in consistent and peripheral (which is to say, he’s a supporting player, not a leader.) Let’s wait and see what he does when there isn’t a 6′4″ 220 lb (Mats, if you didn’t guess…) wrecking ball taking all the heat while he hangs out by the hash marks waiting for a pass. He’s an incredibly talented player, but not near the package you all seem to think he is. Outside of the snow globe that is Toronto sports reporting, Nik is not held in that high of regard.
By outsidethecrease
on Sep 5, 2008
G, you know Ryan Malone right?
Big, supporting player, numbers virtually identical to Antropov’s, ya how was his summer?
The Big Kazak is worth more then you think.
By PPP
on Sep 5, 2008
G - You apparently have never read anything in the Toronto papers if you think that they ever overvalue a Leafs’ player.
outsidethecrease - Cliff has shown that he’s willing to let those guys walk so he’ll start working on an extension as soon as he can with a reasonable price in mind and if he can’t get him signed to the deal he wants he’ll move him at the deadline in order to get something rather than nothing.
I am not saying that they shouldn’t move him if they can’t get him signed to a good deal (and a 28 year old into his prime will still be contributing when the Leafs get back to contention) just that he will not get the kind of return that some think he’ll draw.
By eyebleaf
on Sep 5, 2008
antropov for life
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 5, 2008
Wow, Antro had a career year, and it was 56 pts. And now this has morphed into him either being a future TML leader and offensive star, or a trade deadline #1 target, or an off season 1B tier UFA. OMG, this is just crazy talk.
Vermette, while playing on the third line, had 56 pts, and signed for (albeit a RFA)<3M.
Comparing last season (because this seaon will be awful) to Malone’s Stanley Cup performance is asinine, just asinine.
What will happen is this, he will struggle mightily on a weak team (no offense, but come-on), and any mediocre good-will he had coming into this season, (off of what was a rather mediocre 2007/08 performance) will vanish faster then a dozen donuts at the Wellwood residence.
Trade him now, or wait until, as was already suggested he’s crowned “the leader” by the TOR media, and the fans insist he is “the man” to build around. Isn’t this what happened with Domi, Tucker, McCabe?
Hey, I’m a Sens fan, so maybe I just don’t know what I’m saying about Antro, but….I don’t think so.
By outsidethecrease
on Sep 5, 2008
Gerald, maybe take off those Sens goggles and take a look at the facts. When handing out contracts to UFAs, GMs slaavate over a 6′7 second line center that has proven he can put points on the board.
Like I mentioned, simply look at the return guys like Bertuzzi and Guerin got at the 2007 deadline. Those two were well past their prime and performing at or below the level Antropov did last season.
I guess watching so many Sens games you didn’t realize that Antropov played more games off of Mats’ line then on.
In all actuality he’l likely have bettter linemates this season with himself as the top line center as opposed to Mats. He’ll have Blake on one side who will bounce back after shedding the Paul Maurice shackles and likely Steen on the other side.
By PPP
on Sep 5, 2008
And that’s why we make fun of sens fans: completely and utterly blinded by their bitter hatred of the big boys.
By Steve
on Sep 5, 2008
The funny thing about a Senators fan criticizing Antropov’s 56 points in comparing him to Antoine Vermette is… Vermette DIDN’T SCORE 56 DAMN POINTS. HE SCORED 53.
If you’re going to toss out random Sens stats, shouldn’t you at least get the numbers right?
Vermette had a 53 point season, and prior to last year, he had 39, 33, and 14 point years respectively prior to that. He’s played 4 years in the NHL. So basically he’s the Sens equivalent to Alex Steen? (45, 35, 42)
Antropov has had years of 30, 17, 45, 31 19, 31, 33, and 56 points. Oh and 2 years ago he scored 33 points in 54 games, and the year before that he had 31 points in 57 games. Over a full 82 game schedule those project to 50 and 45 point seasons respectively. So Antropov’s point per game output has increased quite steadily over the past 3 seasons, DESPITE his injury problems. It’s also been a higher ppg ratio than Vermette’s 3 seasons in a row.
A large part of what determines salary scale in the NHL is also a matter of age. Being an RFA really limits a players salary negotiation options, particularly when they are heading for an arbitration hearing, which, last I checked, Vermette was earlier this off season.
Oh and Vermette was a -2 two years ago, and a +3 last season. On teams that scored 70 and 16 more goals than they ALLOWED during each season respectively. Antropov has been a +8 and a +10 the past two years… on teams that let in 8 and 28 more goals than they SCORED respectively. He’s a +67 for his career, and he’s been a minus player ONCE in his entire career.
I don’t care if Plus-Minus is a team stat… It’s pretty hard to be a MINUS player on a team that scores 70 more goals than it allows when most of your scoring is done at even strength… and Vermette’s main complaint in the past was a lack of PP time hurting his production. If you’re scoring at even strength, and your team scores 51 more goals on even strength than it lets in… and you end up -2… you’re not playing very well.
Comparing Vermette to Antropov is more ridiculous than comparing Malone to him… I’m sorry.
Gerald, please try to make a RATIONAL connection, beyond the points they put up in 1 season… If you want I’ll compare Antropov to other injury prone players that haven’t had great outputs over the past few years due to injury, but still get solid value on the Free Agent market:
Todd Bertuzzi, Martin Havlat, Peter Forsberg, Steve Sullivan, etc.
I mean seriously, Radim Vrbata is a way better comparison. He’s had one season at 56 points, and prior to that he had 41, 39, and 25, and 35 point seasons elsewhere around the NHL. His production has been similar to Antropov, and he’s getting $3 million. The whole point of my article is I don’t think he’ll get much MORE than that, and if he does, he’s still not extremely overpriced, considering his production.
If he ends up getting injured for most of the season, the Leafs can use the injury exception to get around the cap anyway… so people need to not get so freaked out about paying him like it’s THEIR money that’s being spent.
By Dan
on Sep 5, 2008
This Gerald guy must have a cushy job to be spending his free time surfing and chatting on Leaf sites… either that, or he’s really a closet Leaf fan. Turn to the dark side Gerald, there are more Leafs fans in Ottawa than there are Sens fans, they’ll be happy to welcome you. Trust me, I’ve been to a Leafs/sens game in Ottawa and even when down by 4 goals all the Leafs fans were having a great time and saying hi in the hallways and high fiving. They ended up coming back to win that game. Just say it in your head, Gerald my friend, ‘go leafs go….Go Leafs Go….. GO LEAFS GO….’ till your saying it out loud…. Therapy is great….
By Steve
on Sep 6, 2008
Actually, Gerald is the HockeyAnalysis resident Sens blogger, so he’s unlikely to shift allegiances. Plus it explains why he’s on the site reading Leafs bloggage… so I don’t begrudge him that… I read and respond to his Senators stuff on occasion.
He’s entitled to his anti-leaf opinions, I just think the facts he bases them upon should actually be factual.
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 6, 2008
Honestly, 3 pts? That destroys my entire argument…hmm, seems like a desperate attempt at obfuscation, but whatever. Especially when you consider total ice time, linemates, role and offensive vs defensive ice time. Look, you’re entitled to your opinion, but don’t attempt to strenghten it with entirely dubious stats.
Antropov compared to Forsberg, Havlat and Burtuzzi…wow, we totally view Antro in different lights. He’s a bubble 2nd liner, and his career has proven that, Vermette will have his 1st crack at a top six role, and still he has comparable numbers to date (projected 82 game numbers not with standing, as that is just pure speculation)
Look, call me a Leaf hater, or a biased Sens fan, ok, par for the course, but at the end of the season we’ll see, and I’ll be here to dish it out or take it, but I’m not even remotely worried about having egg on my face over predicting Antro will be exposed as the lumbering 2nd liner he is.
Comparing the buzz he’ll carry into UFA with that surrounding Malone is the epitome of homerism, and as a fan of the Sens, who am I to critisize, but I also don’t have to agree.
As for Burts and Guerin, these were two proven NHL’ers, with long histories of performance in the post season, what does Antro bring? 28 post season games, none since the lock-out, and only 2 +70 game seasons in 8 attempts. This is no spring chicken, and I do not expect some rejuvenation of Antro simply because he is the best player on the team by default. That simply does not make sense.
Look, I’m not trying to say he sucks, in fact, at his salary, in the right role, he’s a steal (if he remains healthy). But he needs play making talent around him, and at this moment, he does not have any of note. Blake, is another finisher, not creator, and between he and Antro, there’s nobody driving the bus, IMO. Steen? Not likely. This is akin to saying Ottawa’s top line is Vermette, Kelly, Fisher, and saying they’ll break-out as the new defacto top line with the removal of the cash line. It’s nonsensical, to me. I’m not trying to bash, I’m just adding my two cents, isn’t that what this is for? Or is it a Leaf booster blog?
We’ll see
By Dan
on Sep 6, 2008
Vermette would have a shot at playing on the top line if he’d be willing to move to the other wing. But the Sens are not going to move Heatly to the other side to make Vermette happy. Vermette has had lots of chances to play on the top line, in fact the Morons on Team 1200 said he had approx. 20 games up there last year. Gee, think that would help your numbers? The other reason he didn’t stick is because it sounds like he’s a player who has a hard time gelling with skilled players, and that he’s better on a line with faster forwards with less skill.
As for dishing it out and taking it Gerald, what are you predicting for the Sens this season? Some people are already predicting they’ll finish out of the playoffs…
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 6, 2008
I’ve yet to read a single credible projection having the Sens not finish in the top 8. I’d love to read that, feel free to direct me to where you read that.
Vermette has had some time on the 2nd line, but not much at all on the top line. Most of his time is spent as a defensive forward, and PK guy, as his minutes bare out. Not 20 games worth, that’s totally unfounded. Just spot roles, or IR assignments. He played @80 min with Spez last season (the top line offensive player to play the most games), that’s about 4.5 games worth of minutes, if they played together consistently, no where near 20 games. Vermy played about 200 min with Fisher, but a lot of that time was on the PK. Robitaille was the #1 offensive reserve, basically because he was a liability in all other circumstances. Vermette played fewer top line minutes then Tlusty.
Where will the Sens finish? Between 1st in the east and 5th. There have been so many changes that it is near impossible to predict, but no lower then 6th, worse case scenario. If the team can re-gain their defensive focus under Hartsburg, they will challenge for the Cup, if not, they will remain inconsistent and bow out early again in the post season.
Sens have solid puck moving now with Kuba, Lee, Picard. A decent PP QB in Kuba. All star top line, and, if Vermy on the second line clicks, an amesomely potent 2 line offense. I’m not worried about Gerber, especially with the solid defense first blue line surrounding him. Another major improvement on this roster is their character and grit. Smith, Picard, Neil, Bass, Ruutu, Donnovan, Schubert and Fisher will all play hard nose hockey. This team is not the ‘ol skate away Senators.
By Steve
on Sep 6, 2008
Ok, yes Vermette played less than 80 minutes with Spezza, and even less with Heatley (which makes sense since they play the same wing).
But he played over 200 even strength minutes with Daniel Alfredsson, which was more than he had with Mike Fisher. He mainly played alongside Kelly and Neil, but frankly I’m not sure the promotion to top 2 line status will help him out.
Lets remember that playing on a top 2 line also means facing tougher D match ups more regularly. What would actually help his output offensively might be more PP time, but I hate to break it to you, he already has received significant PP time. Last year he played the 6th most PP time of any forward on the Senators, and that’s including Daniel Alfredsson, who predominantly lines up at the point on the Power Play… so he was playing 2nd PP unit minutes last season.
In playing 119 minutes on the PP last season, Vermette scored a total of 10 PP points. That works out to roughly 5 points every 60 minutes he spends on the PP. At even strength he scores points at a rate of 2.20 every 60 minutes.
He played about 10 minutes less on the power play than Alex Steen last year, and Steen had one less point on the PP. Steen’s production worked out to roughly 4.1 points on the PP every 60 minutes. Steen’s even strength production is roughly 1.89 points every 60 minutes.
Antropov by way of comparison scored 2.32 points every 60 minutes at even strength, and had 3.72 points every 60 minutes on the PP.
Antropov produced more at even strength, but didn’t do much on the PP. A lot of that may have to do with the Leafs poor power play last season, or perhaps just a lack of production.
I’m really not trying to argue that Antropov will deserve the same sort of deal as Ryan Malone. I agree that his overall production has been hampered by injury, and I know he’ll dip a bit due to the loss of Sundin. That being said, I think he’s a valuable asset going forwards, and I don’t think the Leafs should deal him if they can resign him for around $3.75 or $4 million a season.
If they get him for reasonable cost, it’s not a problem. I really don’t think a player who scores 50+ points is over-valued if you’re paying him $3.75 or $4 million a year. If he wants big money, they might have to trade him. I hope it doesn’t come to that, but we’ll see what happens.
By TeddyDupuis
on Sep 7, 2008
I think trading Antropov would be a serious mistake, as would not re-signing him. Yes he could possibly get injured, but who couldn’t. I remember his first knee injury against the Sens in the playoffs his first year. Remember, he is 6′6″ and lanky. A kid like that in his early 20’s is at serious jeopardy when it comes to playing against ferocious men in the NHL.
Antropov will not jet at the end of the season if the Leafs offer him fair market value. He is a Russian (I know he’s not Russian) kid who has been here and started a family here and is very loyal to this team. It makes no sense to trade him as he can help bridge the gap while we struggle the next couple of years, but can also be an above average, all-around player who is still in his prime when the Leafs are better.
As for Antoine Vermette, it’s a silly comparison…Antropov is better…hahaha
Can anybody tell me why DAVE SHOALTS and DAMIEN COX love Matt Stajan and want him to be a captain. That would be embarassing.
Yay, our captain gets 30 points a year and is soft on the puck!!!!!!!!!!!!!
By Koopa Kid
on Sep 7, 2008
A Leaf booster blog Gerald? Did you actually read the main post?
“He would not fetch much on the open market for exactly the reasons just described.”
“But honestly? Antropov has never had a 30 goal season, he’s had one solid year, and he needs some more solid play under his belt before teams (including the Leafs) will jump at offering him $4 million or so a year.”
Yup, that sounds like Steve’s just gunning for good ol’ Antro to get the “C” and land a NMC while he’s at it. Seriously though,the last thing you should be doing is criticizing the integrity of Steve’s work here.
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 7, 2008
Steve
Alfie did not spend much of his time on the point during the PP. That was so 2 yrs ago. He did spend a bit of time, after the Corvo trade, but it didn’t work out, so he was replaced with a revolving door of others, and went back to his down low position.
The bulk of Vermettes time was spent with Kelly, and Donnovan, 19 and 12 points respectively. With Alfie he played with Fish in a defensive role, mainly coming off of the PK, or late 3rd minutes, not an offensive role, and to me it looks like 105 min., not over 200 min, feel free to correct me if I’m wrong, seriously, I don’t want to be reading things incorrectly.
Antropov spent the bulk of his time with Sundin, both 5 on 5 and PP. Now, I’m no raging Sundin fan, but I have a feeling he might be a tad more skilled then either Neil or Kelly, just a hunch. The same goes for Steen, who spent >270 min. with Sundin, and over 257 min with Antro. There’s simply no comparing their offensive opportunities.
Once Vermette gets the opportunity to play top 6 minutes regularly, not spot duty, then we’ll know for sure. He could flop. But any player who can pot 53 points, playing <18 min game, with bot. 6 line mates, deserves the benefit of the doubt, IMO.
As for being 6th highest in PP time, he was behind Robitaille on the PP second unit depth chart, and did play more minutes then him, but barely (2), but also played more games over-all (13).
As for the better defenseman, not really, as the top defensive pairing will undoubtedly be lined up against Spez and Heater, and on may teams, after the top 2, it’s a rather sharp decline.
Hey Koopa, comparing Antro to Forsberg, and Malone (of the post season)…ok, that’s reasonable.
By Steve
on Sep 7, 2008
Gerald:
On the Vermette thing, I agree that he should put up better numbers this year. I don’t doubt that he’s a skilled forward, and I honestly think in the future he’ll be making more than $3 million a year. That being said, I wasn’t comparing him to Antropov until someone else brought him up… I’m pretty sure that was you.
Ryan Malone wasn’t mentioned in my initial posting either, that was something thrown out there by outsidethecrease.
Don’t paint me as a pure fanboy for responding to things OTHER people mention in the comments. I’m just reacting at this point. If you want to rip the article, at least rip the players I actually compared him to.
And do you honestly think Todd Bertuzzi, Martin Havlat, Bill Guerin, and Peter Forsberg are worth $4 million dollars a year at this point in their careers? I’m not talking 4 or 5 years ago… I was talking about within the past 2 or 3 seasons, when they’ve been horribly injury prone and thus pretty useless for the most part.
Over the past 3 years Antropov has produced 56, 33, and 31 points (in reverse order) while playing 72, 54, and 57 games. For those 3 seasons he averages 40 points in 61 games a year.
Bertuzzi managed 40 points last year in 68 games, 11 points the year before that while playing in only 15 games. Those years came after having some very strong seasons with Vancouver. His back problems, and baggage due to the Moore incident, are definitely catching up with him physically and mentally. Over the past 2 seasons, he averages out to 42 games, and 26 points a season.
Havlat parlayed his 68 point season in 03-04, which was followed by an injury plagued 16 point season in 05-06 where he played 18 games, into a deal with Chicago that’s paying him $6 million a year. Since he started with the Blackhawks he has registered 57 and 27 point seasons, and played a total of 91 games in two years. That works out to an average of 45 games or so, and 42 points a year… not really all that superior to Antropov’s production in recent years.
Forsberg I will grant you is a few tiers well above Antropov, but considering he hasn’t played over 60 games in a season since 2002-03 (which was 6 seasons ago) then I don’t know that many teams will be counting on him down the line either.
Now for the last comparison let us PLEASE discuss Ryan Malone. Malone is more than a bit over-valued. He is a power forward, but he really hasn’t produced at an elite level, despite playing with two of the highest scoring players in the NHL over the past 2 seasons. He’s been signed to a 7 YEAR DEAL, that pays him an average of $4.5 million per season. He’s 28 years old, so he’ll still be making $4.5 million a year when he’s 35, which might be a bit high frankly. Especially when you consider the rough and tumble nature of his game.
Over the past 3 years, he has scored 51, 31, and 44 points. He has played 77, 64, and 77 games in those years respectively. That works out to an average of 42 points, and 73 games played per year. You mention his time in the playoffs, which is fine, but even then he has a grand total of 25 games played in the playoffs, and he’s put in 6 goals and 10 assists for a cumulative total of 16 points, to go with his +/- of 0 in the post season.
Antropov has played in 28 playoff games, and he has 5 points to go along with a +1 rating. He also hasn’t played in an NHL playoff game since the 03-04 season, when he was 23 years old. Malone was playing last year at the age of 28, and he was riding shotgun with Hossa and Crosby for a lot of the time. I’m pretty sure if Antropov was playing with Hossa and Crosby in the playoffs he’d put some points up too. Oh and before we get past the whole you comparing him to Malone IN THE PLAYOFFS… it has to be said that Malone put up 5 points against a defensively suspect Senators club (who lost Volchenkov for a bit of time if I remember), and then put up another 6 points against the Flyers who were beaten by the Penguins in 7 of their last 9 games against them last season… and Malone was pretty important to that. In those 9 games, he scored a combined 10 points.
Frankly I find it a bit weird how we keep saying that Antropov is obviously crap because he was riding the coat-tails of Mats Sundin, but then we turn around and say Antoine Vermette get’s hardly any playing time with quality team-mates or Ryan Malone is obviously much better because in the PLAYOFFS he put up some goals… while playing with Crosby, Malkin, and Hossa… like seriously… their linemates don’t matter but Sundin is the main reason for Antropov’s production?
If you want to say Malone will continue to produce because he’ll be playing with Lecavalier, St. Louis, Vrbata, Prospal, etc. that’s fine, I agree with you. But saying he’s a better player than Antropov, and deserves more money is a bit of a leap in logic that I frankly don’t see enough evidence to agree with.
I think Antropov would probably fetch around $3 to $3.5 million as a UFA at this point, and I don’t think that’s out of line. I’d like to see the Leafs hold on to him, but if he refuses a reasonable deal, then I think dealing him makes sense.
By Gerald Norton
on Sep 7, 2008
Steve, to be clear, it was not my intent to ascribe to you any comments made by others. I merely referred to them, as having been raised as comparators.
I personally think Antro is comparable to Malone, except for his post season performance. That was awesome, but I don’t think he will keep it up. I think TBL bought high, and will regret the contract. I also feel Fisher is an over-paid player.
I just don’t think Antro will create the buzz needed to land a big deal.
Foppa, Guerin, Burtz all had more pedigree then Antro, and that is worth the gamble to some GM’s.
By Doug
on Sep 8, 2008
Nik would be a top tier forward in the NHL today if the Leafs hadn’t rushed him to the NHL. He was a 6 foot 6 inch kid whoes legs weren’t strong enough to support his mass at a high performance level. He had years of setback due to knee injuries. Once knees are damaged to that degree they are rarely ever the same. Andropov’s knees are therefore; an injury waiting to happen again. That being said He is now a big powerful hockey player with powerful legs and knees. He skates very well for a big guy, and has shown strong development from playing with Sundin and (like him or not) Paul Maurice’s coaching. Nik has shown strong loyalty to the Leaf team. Flethcer should resign Andropov this fall to a 2 or 3 year deal at 4 million per. This would give Toronto more leverage if they did decide Andropov’s greatest value to the Leafs were to trade him.