It Takes A Lot More Than 2

August 26th, 2008 by Steve

Ok so I was listening to Howard Berger’s ranting on Hockey Central today at noon, while driving around town, and I couldn’t help but pick up some points of contention. Howard talks a good game, but his facts are a bit out of whack.

“The feeling I get from many Leafs fans is that they wanna see the Leafs play just well enough to lose most nights this year… You get yourself somebody to go along with Luke Schenn, both those players begin to develop in the next few years, you get yourself a solid foundation and you’re on your way.”

Joe SakicI’m going to come back to this sentiment but it is quite horribly, abominably, flawed. Just look at the Quebec Nordiques and the players they drafted after finishing at the bottom of the NHL perennially, and how long it took them to make it to “respectable” status.

From 1987-88 through 1991-92, they never had more than 69 points in a season. They finished dead last in the NHL 3 consecutive seasons, and they had the 2nd worst season in 91-92. They had 3 consecutive 1st over all picks, paired with the first pick of the 2nd round in those years (89-91). They also picked 2 players in the first round in the 87, 88, and 93 drafts. Throw in the Eric Lindros trade with Philadelphia and THEN you have a “respectable” team built from the rubble of failure.

What Howard is preaching is ridiculously over-simplistic. For the Leafs to emulate teams like the Colorado Avalanche/Quebec Nordiques, or the more recent Phoenix Coyotes, or Chicago Blackhawks, they’ll need to suck for about 6 straight years, and hold on to their draft picks. I’ll come back to discuss the latter two situations in a minute though.

First I’ll take you on a detour through the ridiculous Howard Logic on the McCabe trade as is being discussed with Florida currently:

“Right now I don’t see the Leafs wanting to plug too many holes with veteran players. I wouldn’t trade Bryan McCabe for another player who might be construed in some circles as baggage. Now Mike Van Ryn is a good player, was a very good prospect… but he’s had, for the past two or three years, some pretty bad wrist problems , had some surgery, didn’t play much last season. His contract - I don’t have the number right in front of me - but it’s not a cheapo, it’s a pretty steep stipend that he’s making this season. So again, to me that goes against what the Leafs are trying to do, in terms of trying to be a bit younger and cheaper…”

Ok so Howard wants you to think the Leafs should be dealing Bryan McCabe for a young potential All-Star? As he so correctly stated moments after tossing out this gem, the Leafs can’t expect someone to take their garbage if they won’t take anything in return.

What they get out of the deal is a reduction in their cap hit going forwards, and a player you can actually move to another team, without consulting him or his agent first. Van Ryn is on the docket for $2.9 million for the upcoming season and another one after that. McCabe is going to cost whoever pays him another $5.75 million for each of 3 seasons. That means the Leafs would be paying NOTHING 2 seasons from now, and over the next two years will be saving $2.85 million in cap space each year. If $2.9 million a year qualifies as a “pretty steep stipend” to Howard, than doesn’t it follow from a $2.85 million savings that the Leafs are providing themselves with the room to sign a non-”cheapo” player in the near future should they choose to? I guess logic is a bit too much to ask.

Now back to Howard’s discussion of how the Leafs build themselves into a contender. I don’t disagree with the idea of going forward with youth, my problem is with what Berger thinks the time frame looks like, and the number of draft picks it requires. He’s estimating the Leafs “need 2″ foundation players. I would argue that building through the draft requires a team to scramble around the basement for a while until it can cobble together at least 5 solid players… at the minimum. Then it needs to add functional role players, who fit into the team mentality going forwards. This won’t be done in a year or so folks. Here’s what Howie had to say in comparing the Leafs situation to that of the Phoenix Coyotes:

“You need one more year to get yourself in a primo drafting position, and then again you’ve got a foundation, and you can build around young players. Unequivocally that is the way to do it in the post lockout NHL. You can’t plug holes. Teams have tried to do it, the Leafs… the Phoenix Coyotes tried to do it… they’ve started now to bring along some young players. Peter Mueller is gonna be a very good player, he started last season. Kyle Turris is coming up, Dan Carcillo is one of the premiere s*** disturbers in the game, and he can score a little bit, they’ve got some good young players, [Daniel] Winnik on that team. They’re gonna move forward, that’s the way you move forward in the NHL. You’ve gotta move forward with youth, you’ve gotta get… every time you get a front line or a player that has the possibility of mid or front line status, playing at the entry level contract area, $850,000 a year plus some - i guess bonus money or whatever you wanna call it - that’s just extra. You’re getting a guy playing for virtually peanuts, who could be your best player very quickly. That’s the way to do it.”

Lets just ignore for the moment the fact that the Coyotes traded away Nick Boynton, and Keith Ballard (one of their best young D men, who had picked up 20+ points in all 3 of his first seasons in the NHL, and was only making $2.275 million and heading for restricted free agency next year) to Florida in exchange for Olli Jokinen (who is still fairly young at 29, and has scored at least 30 goals for the past 3 seasons on a weak Florida team, but is going to cost the Coyotes $5.25 million each of this year and the next).

Phoenix COULD BE improving. Slowly. Last season they finished out of the playoffs, with 88 points. They haven’t actually been in the playoffs for 6 years (including the lockout season). Prior to that, they were in the playoffs 6 of the previous 7 seasons, though they exited in the first round every time they made it.

Unfortunately I think the theory that Berger throws out to Leafs fans about the Leafs ‘patching holes’ with veterans in a manner similar to how the Coyotes conducted business in the past is a bit off base. It’s also entirely illogical when you consider how things progressed in Phoenix.

When the club moved from Winnipeg to Phoenix, they had Keith Tkachuk, Jeremy Roenick, Mike Gartner, Teppo Numminen, Oleg Tverdovsky etc. They weren’t really plugging holes at that point. Tkachuk, Numminen, and Khabibulin were all drafted by the team. Teemu Selanne moved on to Anaheim after the team’s last year in Winnipeg, but Roenick and Gartner were brought in to replace the scoring, and generally the team wasn’t that bad. Shane Doan was drafted in 1995, and the team remained average at best through the 01-02 season - the last time they made the playoffs.

In the 2000-01 season, the team finished with 90 points, but failed to make the post season. During some internal upheaval (including the entry of Wayne Gretzky as part owner, and Cliff Fletcher and Mike Barnett in management roles) the Coyotes decided to jettison Tkachuk to St. Louis mid-season in exchange for Michal Handzus and Ladislav Nagy, and they let Roenick walk as an unrestricted free agent to Philly in the off season. The team also made deals to acquire Daymond Langkow from Philly in exchange for draft picks, and finally settled on giving Daniel Briere some playing time.

The trade for Handzus and Nagy was made in an effort to get younger. Paul Mara was obtained in a trade from Tampa Bay in an effort to improve the offensive abilities of the Defense. In 2001-02 the team’s fortunes improved as young Daymond Langkow and Daniel Briere helped out with an increase in scoring. The team was in the midst of a youth movement, and in recording 95 points en route to making the playoffs, most NHL pundits would have told you they were doing the “right things”.

Then somehow in 2002-03 the wheels fell off. All of a sudden Mike Johnson was the team’s leading scorer as players like Doan, Nagy, Langkow, and Briere struggled. Nobody on the team scored 30 goals. Briere was shipped to Buffalo in exchange for Chris Gratton in an effort to get “tougher” up the middle. Tony Amonte had been signed in the off season as a UFA to add scoring, but was shipped to Philadelphia in exchange for draft picks, mid-season for failing to produce. The team was still largely led by younger players, and they were still finding their way. The problem seemed to be the constant turn-over of role players. Those being added for scoring punch or toughness were either incapable of reproducing previous numbers or were given up on quite early in an effort to change direction.

In 2003-04 the team fell even further off the map with coaching changes and a complete reshuffling of the decks on the 2nd and 3rd lines. Ossi Vaananen, Landon Wilson, Branko Radivojevic, Jan Hrdina, Mike Sillinger, Brian Savage, Sean Burke and Chris Gratton were all shipped out in an effort to clean house.

Brett HullFollowing the lockout, in 2005-06 Mike Comrie was still around, Mike Ricci, Brett Hull, Curtis Joseph, and Boyd Devereaux were all signed. Oleg Saprykin was brought in, and Steven Reinprecht and Geoff Sanderson were traded for. The Coyotes shipped out Peter Nedved, Denis Gauthier, Sean O’Donnell, and David Tanabe, during the season. The aging following the lockout - and the import of friends of Gretzky led to some pretty crappy hockey in Phoenix. The team still sucked in 2006-07 despite the fact that Owen Nolan, Yanic Perreault, Ed Jovanovski, Jeremy Roenick (again), Derek Morris, George Laraque, and Nick Boynton all collected pay cheques from the Coyotes. On paper, that really isn’t that bad a team, but it is getting older, and not a lot quicker.

Last year they gave more playing time to Radim Vrbata, Peter Mueller, Martin Hanzal, Daniel Winnik, Daniel Carcillo, Keith Ballard, Zbynek Michalek, and other younger players… and they still missed the playoffs. Now Vrbata is gone, Ballard and Boynton were traded for Jokinen, and frankly I’m not sure the team IS making themselves so much better. Mueller, Turris, Jokinen, Doan, Hanzal, Winnik, and Carcillo are all good offensive players, but the team’s D now consists of Derek Morris, Ed Jovanovski, Keith Yandle, Zbynek Michalek, and Freddy Mayer. Their top goalie Ilya Bryzgalov will make a big difference, but I’m still not sure they’re going to be much improved… despite what Howard wants you to believe. Their D will be spotty at best, but they’ll likely make the playoffs again.

Now on to the Chicago comparison:

“The Chicago Blackhawks are a good example right now, with Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews… I mean they’re a little bit lucky there to get two players of that caliber in the same year, but you see how a laughing stock like the Blackhawks was turned into a very good team in the span of one short year.”

Really? They turned into a good team in ONE SHORT YEAR? Let’s review. The Blackhawks have made the playoffs once since the 1996-97 season. That was in the 2001-02 season, and they lost in the 1st round. Since the 1997 draft they have drafted the following players in the 1st round:

97 - Daniel Cleary; 98 - Mark Bell; 99 - Steve McCarthy; 00 - Mikhail Yakubov, Pavel Vorobiev; 01 - Tuomo Ruutu, Adam Munro; 02 - Anton Babchuk; 03 - Brent Seabrook; 04 - Cam Barker; 05 - Jack Skille; 06 - Jonathan Toews; 07 - Patrick Kane. Then this past draft they picked Kyle Beach in the first round 11th overall. If you add in Duncan Keith, and James Wisniewski from the 02 draft, and Dustin Byfuglien from the 03 draft, you begin to realize that the Blackhawks took a lot more good drafting than just Patrick Kane and Jonathan Toews. If anything I would argue that they were the finishing touches on a well built DEFENSIVE foundation of Seabrook, Barker, Wisniewski, and Keith. Lets just say that building a team through the draft that can get you 88 points and STILL not make the playoffs will take you at least 7 seasons… but it’s more likely you’ll need 10 or so… if you follow the Chicago model at least.

I guess my point is, developing through the draft is NOT as simple - or easy - as Howard Berger makes it sound. He’s telling everyone the Leafs will get a pass for not making the playoffs for next season. How about another 5 straight seasons? I doubt he’d be ok with that.

So there you go Leafs fans, either we build this team from the ground up - SLOWLY OVER TIME - through the draft, or we go for the quick fix. Personally I’d rather see the team built for the long haul, but I don’t know if anyone should expect patience from the majority of Leafs fans… or their ownership.

Posted in Uncategorized
  1. 13 Responses to “It Takes A Lot More Than 2”

  2. By Mike CANADA on Aug 26, 2008

    Exactly… What Berger and others assume is that a top 5 pick is sure bet star that will lead the Leafs to the promise land.But if the pick is a bust then you need another crap year and so on and so on.Building through the draft is a long process even with Lemeuix Pittsburgh continued to miss the playoffs. Once you make the right picks then you have to make the right moves to surround the picks to make them even better. One mistake could send you right back to the beginning.What you need is a top 3rd Powerplay and penaly kill no matter where they were drafted or how much cap they use up or if they have a no trade clause.This a special teams league.

  3. By G UNITED STATES on Aug 26, 2008

    Good call. Berg’s also put up the Pittsburgh comparison on his blog, as if to state that Malkin and Crosby are the entire team, failing to mention Whitney and Fleury as equal parts to a now succesful team. I’m truly OK with sucking for another 5-6 years if that’s what it takes. I like what they are doing now, and think the trade to move up for Schenn was brilliant. It does seem however that, a log jam has been intentionally created on D to ensure they keep him in the monors. No sense rushing him, certainly, but the plethora of D makes me think there must be a trade in the works. All that said, I watched the Leafs suck in the 80’s, so it won’t be anything we haven’t seen before if it drags on for another 5 years…

  4. By HandsAlot CANADA on Aug 26, 2008

    Berger is a clown that is only where he is because not enough people call him out.

  5. By Dan CANADA on Aug 26, 2008

    I have to say that it is a bit more difficult to make statements on radio and be able to back them up statistically. He’s got a fairly long show to try to keep rolling with talk day in and day out. That’s a lot of talk, so I’d probably cut him some slack once in a while. It’s a lot different than someone who writes an article and can take the time to research it (although there are lots of writers who pen an article without looking up a fact at all). Steve, you do make some good points and you take the time to research. amen to that.

    In any event, I do keep hearing everyone say, just lose to pick up one more good guy. To compare the Leafs to the Nords is pretty dumb, first off, the team wont stand for losing the way the Nordics did. They play in a much different NHL then in 20 some years ago. They can actually try to fill holes through free agency and can spend money to try to get better. The new NHL is a much different game.

    I honestly believe that the Leafs have some decent players on their roster. Players who will make it difficult to play against night in and night out. I don’t think that the loser atmophere that was in the dressing room last year is still there. I don’t think the country club will exist the same way that it did under previous coaches and management. Cliff and Wilson are going to try to move forward this year. If you go in with the mindset of ‘if we lose for a couple of more years we’ll move ahead then’ then you breed losers. And that window to win the cup after stocking up is a pretty short window. Just ask the Pens who have lost a few key players from their run.

    I would rather build to get better, make the playoffs every year and give it a go than sit at the bottom for 5-7 years and then try to make that sprint for the 1-2 year window.

  6. By Marc CANADA on Aug 26, 2008

    Wow you really do have a beef against Berger.
    Is this a Leafs Blog or a HOward BERger bashing blog?

  7. By scotty CANADA on Aug 26, 2008

    If someone has a job analyzing hockey, they should actually take the time to check stats, records, salaries,etc before giving their “cherished opinions” to the world. I don’t know how many times I have to correct people like Pierre McGuire or Greg Millen or Howard Berger or (ahem) Damien Cox for rattling stuff off that isn’t even close to accurate. I don’t get paid to follow sports and I can give more of an informed opinion than way to many TV broadcasters or journalists. I’d say most of the people who pay attention to this site could as well. It’s just frustrating as a fan and someone who’s looking for an honest take on the league and our favorite teams. Keep up the good work Steve.

  8. By Steve CANADA on Aug 26, 2008

    While I often have a problem with Howard Berger, I’ve only actually written 11 blogs that discuss his opinions directly. That’s 11 out of 192 postings, which is 5.7% of everything on the site.

    What you’re probably noticing is the fact that there’s no actual Leafs news to comment on or analyze, so I’m stuck picking over the dregs tossed out by the Leafs media horde. Berger just happens to be more of a regular contributor at this point than his partners in crime. Damien Cox is on vacation, Steve Simmons has been doing work in Beijing, and on top of that, the Leafs haven’t really done anything meaningful in a while.

    Either way, I don’t think you can really argue that I didn’t provide a pretty in depth of analysis of the situations described… it’s not like I typed out a blog that ranted and raved at how idiotic Howard is with no support for my perspective.

  9. By outsidethecrease UNITED STATES on Aug 27, 2008

    “What you’re probably noticing is the fact that there’s no actual Leafs news to comment on or analyze”

    Yes there is, why don’t you talk about the Rookie Tournament roster, it came out yesterday morning. THat’s news, take a look at the prospects playing and how they might fair in an attempt to move up the depth chart.

  10. By Steve CANADA on Aug 27, 2008

    I suppose if you want to call the release of a rookie camp roster “news” that’s fine… and I’ll get to it… but you should realize that the roster was released on August 26th at 12:07 pm EDT.

    Believe it or not, I actually listened to Berger on the radio during my day of not sitting at home surfing the interweb while I was out of the house, and decided to write this when I got home based on some of the stuff he’d said. The fact that I then spent a while transcribing audio verbatim before punching out a response might have gotten in the way of what others consider valuable.

    I’ll be sure to let you all know where I think Jadran Beljo will end up in the Leafs system in a bit though.

  11. By outsidethecrease UNITED STATES on Aug 27, 2008

    I just would have thought talking about kids like DiDomminico, Dale Mitchell and Stefanovic who might play a big part in the Leaf’s future might be more valuable then ranting about a guy on teh radio who you don’t like.
    I guess not.

  12. By outsidethecrease UNITED STATES on Aug 27, 2008

    Your eally don’t need to get so defensive. I just would have thought looking at the future of the team would be something you’d be interested in.

  13. By Glenn UNITED STATES on Aug 27, 2008

    This is a worth while blog because it doesn’t hinge entirely on bashing Berger. It also brings up a good discussion point about how long the Leafs rebuilding could take compared to other teams.

    This was a great, well thought out article with lots of references to the “up and coming” teams of the future.

    There are a lot of people that have forgotten how long some of these teams have been building for.

    I think this articles is as much about looking at the future of the team as anything that could be written about the Rookie Roster tournament. Toronto has one of the worst pipelines for future talent, this article is only focusing on what we have to do to restock our baren cupboards.

  14. By Steve CANADA on Aug 27, 2008

    Actually, I already did some detailed analysis of Stefanovich when he was drafted. As for the Rookie Roster, I’m in the midst of writing something, but I’m late for work… so I’ll probably publish it tomorrow if I get the time.

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