Leafs Sign A Trio
July 1st, 2008 by SteveIn signing Curtis Joseph to a 1 year, $700,000 deal, the Leafs get an upgrade in the backup netminding department, they improve the locker room with the affable and polite goalie, and they get some cache with the fans for bringing back a favourite. The price is actually relatively reasonable, especially when you consider that the outgoing, shell shocked, though admittedly quite a bit younger, Andrew Raycroft signed for $800,000 for a 1 year deal in Colorado. If you compare the numbers of the two netminders, it’s a knockout win for Joseph, who is the one of the best goalies of his generation, and who still put up very solid numbers behind a good team in Calgary during last year’s playoff run.
More intriguing, and perhaps questionable, is the signing of free agent defender Jeff Finger. With 19 points and a +12 rating last season in 72 games, Finger’s stock was definitely on the rise. That being said, he has little in the way of NHL experience for a 28 year old blue liner. He was steady if unspectacular for Hershey, Lowell, and Albany at the AHL level before earning promotion to the Avs in the ‘06-’07 season.
With a defensive game that is considered (at least in media circles) to be relatively similar to his team mate Kurt Sauer, it is a tad surprising he has been rewarded with a 4 year $3.5 million a year contract. Sauer has also been signed to a 4 year deal, by the Phoenix Coyotes, but his is only valued at $1.75 million per - Finger’s going to make twice as much money over the next 4 years… I’m not sure that makes much sense. All of that being said, a closer look at the numbers begins to indicate why he’s being paid more money for the next few years.
The point totals slide in Finger’s favour, as Sauer only registered 6 points, which ties his career high. Finger also had more hits and blocked shots per game at 1.68 Hpg, and 1.63 BkSpg in comparison to Sauer’s 0.88 Hpg, and 1.09 BkSpg. The take-away/give-away ratio (higher number is better) also favours Finger, where he had a 1.11 Ta/Ga, Sauer had a 1.08 Ta/Ga. In terms of Ice-Time, Finger played about a minute more per game at even strength (16:35 vs. 15:25), slightly under a minute less on the PK (2:18 vs. 3:10) and where Sauer played almost zero time on the PP, Finger saw about a minute of PP time a game. All in all, Finger looks like the better all-around defender than Sauer.
Sauer has more experience at the NHL level, having played in 288 games, as compared to 94 for Finger. That being said, over the past 3 seasons, Sauer has been quite injury prone, playing 54, 48, and 37 games respectively. He missed 28 games with a concussion last season, and perhaps this is something teams were wary of when considering the big blue liner. When I say big, I do mean big, as Sauer’s size at 6′4″, 220 lbs, is quite considerable. Finger isn’t as big, standing 6′1″ and 205 lbs, but he certainly isn’t a midget, and he does possess a bit of a mean streak, fighting occasionally despite his low penalty totals. That should stand the Leafs in good stead considering he is a solid defensive minded rear guard.
If anything, this should point the way to the exit for Bryan McCabe. The Leafs now have Kaberle, Kubina, Finger, Stralman, White, Colaiacovo, Kronwall, and Schenn on the radar for next season… all of whom are likely to be a larger part of the picture Fletcher has in mind going forwards. That isn’t to say they are all superior to McCabe in their overall play, they just cost less, and play within their limitations more appropriately than McCabe does.
There are still discussions of potential trades involving Pavel Kubina, but little of note has arisen as of yet.
On another note, Darcy Tucker has signed a two year $4.5 million dollar deal to play with Finger’s ex team, the Colorado Avalanche. Unfortunately this means Leafs fans will not be seeing a whole lot of Darcy, which given his propensity to play well against former teams, might be a good thing.
I’ll update this thing as the day moves forward… when I get the chance.
* Update *
Ok, so the Leafs also signed Niklas Hagman to a four year, $12 million deal. That’ll work out to $3 million a year which isn’t really a bad price tag for a young, solid defensive forward, with offensive upside and great wheels. As I’ve discussed in previous postings (and comments) I’m relatively certain if Hagman gets the ice time of a top 2 line player, and penalty kills, and gets some PP time, he’s capable of scoring 30+ goals. Last season was his career high at 27 goals, but he only took 178 shots on net. If you compare that to the Leafs of last season, that would’ve placed him 3rd on the team in shots behind Blake and Sundin, and 2nd on the team in goals behind Sundin (1 more than Antropov’s 26).
He finished tied for 2nd on Dallas in goals with 27 (Mike Ribeiro was the other), behind Brendan Morrow’s 32 goals. Only 4 of those goals came by way of the PP though, so he does well 5 on 5. He was 4th on the team in shots behind Richards, Morrow, and Modano. He played 15:36 on average per game, with 2:21 of that being on the PP, and 2:11 of it being on the PK. He basically plays in all situations, and he should slot in nicely as a top 6 forward on the rebuilding Leafs.
He’s not a replacement for Sundin, but he’s defensively responsible, he skates well, and he’ll provide some scoring punch. Decent pick up on Fletcher’s part for $3 million a year, and he’s only 28.
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33 Responses to “Leafs Sign A Trio”
By JR
on Jul 1, 2008
I’d like to see what other teams were offering Finger. I’m not sure I like the fact that toronto has yet another defenseman making several million dollars a year. For someone who’s played 94 games over a two year pro career, maybe $2-$2.5M per year would be more reasonable in my opinion. Like I said though, it all depends on what other teams were offering. Now I really hope they can dump McCabe.
By Troy
on Jul 1, 2008
Don’t remind Pierre McGuire about the Finger signing. His opinion on that deal is a tirade waiting to happen
By Jason C
on Jul 1, 2008
I’m with McGuire on this one. This signing is more ridiculous than McCabe’s blue mohawk. Fletcher’s not gonna make me eat my words. There’s no way you can justify a 28-year old with less than 100 games of NHL experience and 19 points on the year with a $3.5m/year contract.
By scotty
on Jul 1, 2008
At first glance, it looks like Fletcher overspent. But when you compare Finger to players around his age and comparable skills, his salary makes sense (along with the fact other teams were trying to land him). He is coming into his prime, the only question mark is that he hasn’t played as many NHL games as most other 27 year old defensemen. That may not matter though. He does have solid +/- numbers and from the few games I watched him play, he seemed consistent and dependable (though he probably shouldn’t be as quick to drop the gloves with too many players as he’s been tooled more than once). So it could work out for the Leafs, and this makes Mccabe’s impending (we hope) departure more important. Of course, with the numerous injuries the Leafs tend to rack up another body to play D, either on the power play or the PK, is welcome.
As far as CUJO, it’s a good move to keep the dressing room laid back and have a no-nonsense selfless guy as a backup who the fans know will be giving it his all and keep Vesa from playing 75 games.
Oh, and Pierre McGuire should probably find a job where people acutally value what he has to say (and for the love of Pete, stop yelling into your microphone!).
By Steve
on Jul 1, 2008
One thing to remember in regards to Finger and his number of games played is he was in the Colorado Avalanche system. He was drafted in the 8th round, #240 overall, and played in the NCAA at St Cloud State. His first year as a pro was 2003-04, and he started in the minors playing for both the Reading Royals of the ECHL for 10 games and the Hershey Bears of the AHL for another 63 games that season.
In 2003-04 the Colorado D had the following names: Rob Blake, J-M Liles, Adam Foote, Derek Morris, Martin Skoula, Karlis Skrastins, Brett Clark, Kurt Sauer, Bob Boughner, Ossi Vaananen, and Chris McAllister.
McAllister, Skoula, and Morris were all traded that season, but considering there were at least 11 players ahead of him on the depth chart (all of whom had previous NHL experience) going into that season, it’s not that shocking he didn’t make the NHL franchise.
In ‘04-’05 things weren’t much better as the lockout happened, so he was stuck for another season in the AHL with Hershey.
In ‘05-’06 things improved slightly, but the Avs still had the following D men: Rob Blake, J-M Liles, Patrice Brisebois, Brett Clark, Karlis Skrastins, Bob Boughner, Kurt Sauer, and Ossi Vaananen. Foote had moved on, but that’s still 8 guys ahead of you on the depth chart. Being the 9th ranked D man in an NHL franchise’s system is sort of a hard place to wait when the 8 guys ahead of you all have solid amounts of NHL experience.
Consider the fact that Sauer and Clark had the least of that group and Sauer had played 149 NHL games already over 3 seasons between Anaheim and Colorado, and Clark had played 158 games in the NHL, with his first games coming with Montreal back in ‘97-’98, before a stint with Atlanta from ‘99 to ‘02. Obviously when you’ve got ZERO NHL games to your credit, and the guys ahead of you have over 100 games at the NHL level, you’re looking at an uphill battle.
In ‘06-’07 things brightened a bit when Blake was moved. But rather than opening more spots, the Avs brought in Ken Klee (710 NHL games entering that season), and Jordan Leopold (214 NHL games entering that season). Both of whom again had more time at the NHL than Finger.
Finger still broke his way into the lineup that year, playing 22 games in the NHL as a 27 year old rookie. He’d finally made it to the show, and after a relatively successful sophomore campaign, he’s cashed a decent pay day with the Leafs. If anything, I think the fact that he cracked the Avs lineup and overcame the depth that team has on D speaks volumes about his ability and playing level.
I actually look forward to how he does with the Leafs. Maybe $3.5 million is an over valuation… maybe it isn’t, but only time will tell.
By Jason C
on Jul 1, 2008
I don’t have an issue over the Leafs signing Finger. He’s a serviceable depth NHL defenseman - and that’s all he is. I just think that throwing $3.5m for a guy who has yet to rightfully earn that paycheque is throwing money away. A lot of long-term contracts nowadays are signed on potential, but consider this:
In the 8th round of the ‘99 draft, only 3 other defensemen are active today: Garnet Exelby, Doug Murray, and Radek Martinek. Exelby earns a little less than $1.5m annually, Murray has yet to break the million dollar barrier, and Martinek just recently inked a $4.5m, 3-year extension. Each and every one of these guys has had more NHL experience than Finger.
Sure, the premium for a puck-moving defenseman is high, but former teammate JM Liles has 159 points in 313 games, but is only signed for 500k more per year. Even Liles, who was one of the more coveted puck-moving defensemen this year, would not have fetched more than $4.5m/year on the market. Purely based on production, Finger’s not even half the player Liles is, and yet he is apparently worth $3.5m/year?
I find it very, very difficult to grasp how Fletcher thinks Finger deserves more money than guys like Staios, Ballard, Boynton, Burns, Schultz, Zidlicky, Suter, Phillips, Ohlund, Poti, etc.
Finger may have had a very steep uphill climb to get to the NHL, but just because he got here and established himself as a blueliner in one season doesn’t mean he’s worth millions. Guys far more talented and younger than Finger are getting less money. It’s illogical.
In Toronto you still have (thus far) McCabe, Kubina, and Kaberle in front of him, not to mention he’ll have to fight for ice-time with guys like Colaiacovo (if he stays healthy), White, and Kronwall. I just don’t think is a good investment for the Leafs at all.
By Troy
on Jul 1, 2008
Amen to that Jason. He’s getting more dough next year than Nik Kronwall, who helped bruise and batter opponents en route to a Stanley Cup, same amount as Mattias Ohlund, an established NHLer, Dan Hamhuis, who’s 3 years younger and looking very, very good.
None of us think Finger is some piece of crap, but how can he be justified at 3.5 million at this stage of his career?
By Steve
on Jul 1, 2008
Ok in response to being given more money than Staios - Staios took 236 games and 5 NHL seasons before he cracked the 20 point plateau.
Boynton’s more comparable, but in his case there’s a serious issue with your argument. He’s never been an Unrestricted Free Agent. He’s only signed RFA deals so far in his career - just like Burns, Schultz, Zidlicky, Suter, Ohlund and Ballard. You can’t compare an UFA signing to guys who are signing RFA deals… they aren’t equivalent situations - at all. The fact that a number of them are locked into long term deals is a good thing on the part of their management, not a reflection of their true value on the open market.
As for Phillips, I’m pretty sure he took the “hometown” discount when he resigned with Ottawa because he thought he’d be winning a cup in the near future. He had the opportunity to test the open market, and decided instead to stay with the team that drafted him. You can’t blame Finger for a decision like that on Phillips’ part. Frankly Phillips would get a lot more than $3.5 million if he was on the open market today, and if you deny that you’re the ones being idiots.
Poti is the only other UFA signing on the list that you gave me, and frankly he’s an average at best defender in his own end that has little physical aspect to his game. He gets $3.5 million for being a solid point producer. He’s signed two UFA deals in the past two seasons, and he ended up with a 1 year deal with the Islanders after a 23 point, +16 season for the Rangers?
Then he parlayed his 44 point, -1 season on the Isle into a 4 year, $3.5 million per year, deal with the Capitals.
If you want to bring up a pack of UFA defense men whose prices are set by the open market, then be my guest, but you really can’t make an adequate comparison if you’re throwing out a list of 10 comparable guys and only 2 of them have ever hit the market.
Liles got more… which makes sense.
As for the comparison to other players in his draft year, that’s almost entirely irrelevant. It doesn’t make any difference to me who was taken before or after a certain player in a draft when I’m considering how much he’s worth. You don’t think Tony Hrkac should’ve been making over $5 million a year because he was drafted in the same year as Mario Lemieux do you? If so that’s a tad silly. I mean if so, shouldn’t you be indignant that there aren’t enough NHL owners that were drafted in 1984? Maybe Gary Roberts and Kirk Muller should move into ownership after they’re through playing and coaching… or not.
By Steve
on Jul 1, 2008
Ok here, I’ll save you the effort. Here are the UFA D men that were paid $3.5 million last season. Alexei Zhitnik, Brad Stuart, Chris Phillips, Craig Rivet, Derian Hatcher, and Willie Mitchell.
Zhitnik had 14 and then 8 points in each of his last 2 seasons. He is no longer playing in the NHL.
Stuart just got a raise and signed for another 4 years. He also gets to keep playing on the Stanley Cup winners.
Phillips took a discount as I mentioned in my last message. He also gets to keep playing for a contender.
Rivet has gone from a 20-30 point guy to a 30+ point guy playing on a good team in San Jose, he’s great value for Doug Wilson at $3.5 mill.
Hatcher has gone from a solid, big-minutes, shut-down defender to a slow liability that chews up payroll and has horrible knees. He scored 9 and 7 points in each of the past two seasons, and thankfully for the Flyers, next year is the last one on his 4 year deal. He will probably retire when that’s done.
Willie Mitchell is intriguing in this category. He’s got 2 years left on his 4 year deal. He parlayed big years with Minnesota and Dallas into big money from Vancouver. He’s never scored more than 13 points in a season, and his career high is a +19 that he racked up in his free agency year with both Dallas and Minnesota. He also has a -16 season from his first few years with the Wild though, and his numbers with Vancouver are average at best.
Finger has 24 points in 94 games at the NHL level. He is a career +22. He might be getting paid based on a short showing of his work, but he’s played well, and he’s gone through the ringer in the AHL for years behind a deep defensive squad in Colorado. It’s far too early to judge this one, but frankly I don’t think he’s going to be as bad as everyone is predicting.
I’m reminded of how everyone bashed the Leafs for the Kubina signing. Two years later, he now gets either grudging respect, or heart-felt praise from sources around the NHL, and even in Toronto. Not every signing the Leafs make is half cooked. Just because they over-paid McCabe (who sucks in his own end) doesn’t mean they’ve done so with every other player on the team.
By Steve
on Jul 1, 2008
Oh and Troy, as for Kronwall in Detroit - same point as the one I made to Jason: he’s an RFA. Not the same ballpark.
You guys can’t compare apples to oranges. Doesn’t work.
By dan
on Jul 1, 2008
From what I have read, this guy was wanted through out the league. The Leafs might have paid a bit more that most people would have liked, but they are looking for certain types of players. Players who hit, players who bang, players who have emotion, players who block shots, have some offencive upside.
Most people think that this is the Leafs being the Leafs, but this is a new management with a new scouting staff. At least they aren’t paying him for putting up a ton of points in one year like McCabe or Sourey. They believe he is going to be a decent defenceman for a long time, I think they may be on to something. Remember, he’s only 28 and doesn’t have a ton of milage on his legs and is going to be working with a very good coach. Give it a chance before writing this guy off.
As for the McGuire thing, last year you had to build your team like the Ducks, this year it’s like Detroit …. his points are very near sighted and his memory seems to be short on his analysis of the Detroit goaltending situation.
By scotty
on Jul 1, 2008
As far as Hagman goes, he will be very welcome on the PK (where the Leafs had a plethora of issues last year) and he has speed (something else the Leafs are not particulary known for) and when I looked up some blogs of Dallas Stars fans, they all can’t say enough positive stuff about the guy. I think this was a great move by Fletcher and it should be evident at game one. The jury may be out longer on Finger, but GMs can’t play it safe all the time either.
And as far as comparing salaries goes, the fact that the Cap is going up again makes the numbers a bit skewed (you sort of have to adjust for “inflation” when comparing what somebodt signed one or two years ago).
By Steve
on Jul 1, 2008
With these three signings the Leafs are at just under $48 million. They have around $8.7 million in cap space left. They still have to resign Stajan, which will hopefully only cost them around $1.6 to $1.8 million a year. That leaves them with about $7 million to spend on whatever else they like. The roster is technically full at this point, so if they choose to upgrade at a certain position it’s all gravy from here to training camp.
I’m looking forward to a year of young kids battling it out for ice time, and improving their game as they grow. They’ll get more than their share of bumps and bruises along the way, but if Steen, Stajan, Kulemin, Tlusty, Stralman, Colaiacovo, White, Vorobiev (perhaps?) and Schenn, all continue to grow as players, while the rest of the team either maintains the status quo or improves, I don’t think we’ll end up dead last in the standings.
We’re probably not a playoff team, but next season around this time we’ll know if we’re closer or further away than originally planned. We should also have a new crop of draft picks to look forward to, and another set of free agents to nitpick over.
Rookie Camp is the next big thing on the radar at this point, and I’m personally sort of sick of the Sundin death watch. I’ve already moved on. If he returns, that sort of screws up the Leafs development plans, again… but who knows what the big Swede’s got in mind. Either way, enjoy arguing over this stuff for the next few weeks. I’ve got Physics to teach.
By Jason C
on Jul 2, 2008
Using the list you gave me…
Alexei Zhitnik. Prior to his trade to Atlanta, he played 14 NHL seasons, averaging in the high 70s in games played per year, including a string of 30+ point years. Minus the games he’s played for Atlanta, which were less than memorable, he had to log over 1000 NHL games to land a $3.5m contract. He was considered to be a good signing by most and his play for whatever reason completely tailed off after he left Long Island. He signed that contract (I believe) after coming off a 28 point season in 68 games, including 102 penalty minutes. Finger only has youth on his side in that department, but even then, he is already 28.
Brad Stuart. He was third on the team with a +15 rating in the playoffs. Only Kronwall and Zetterberg were ahead, and both were at +16. He averaged 21:40 TOI/G, good enough for 6th on the team and 4th behind Rafalski, Lidstrom , and Kronwall. He also recorded 59 hits to lead the team, as did his 28 blocked shots. Needless to say, Stuart was a vital cog in their playoff run, and he only is worth slightly more than Finger?
Chris Phillips. Yes, he took a hometown discount. But Murray used his contract as a starting point for Redden’s negotiations, who just signed a $6.5m contract, a full $3m more than Phillips. We will never know what other offers were made to Finger, but I really wonder what they were. Were they close to the $3.5m figure the Leafs offered? I don’t think so. If the other offers were close, a guy like Finger wouldn’t have been one of the first to sign on July 1st.
Craig Rivet. His 104 PIMs were second on the team, only behind Shelley and his 35 total points were second to Campbell. Asides from Ozolinsh and Campbell, who only came at the deadline, his 3:35 PP TOI/G is second amongst defensemen on the team, and his 20 PPP was second only to Campbell. His 79 blocked shots ranked 5th on a very good shot-blocking team. Serving as one of the assistant captains, he too, is only worth $3.5m, not to mention he had 600+ games and 50+ playoff games under his belt.
Derian Hatcher is a shadow of his former self, but we all know that he is still effective as a stay-at-home blueliner. There’s no point in arguing his case because his reputation precedes him, and rightfully so.
Willie Mitchell. Ask any Canuck fan. Mitchell turned this team’s defensive mindset around. He is the go-to shutdown guy and it’s not an easy job in the West. While he did have a disappoint season, he nevertheless finished with a +6 rating, and his 109 blocked shots led the team, as well as his 4:24 SH TOI/G. That SH ice-time he averages is top 10 in the league. He too, despite his limited offensive production, is worth $3.5m/year. And that’s in a down year. Finger does not play offense or defense nearly as well as Mitchell plays defense.
I think Finger got lucky with the deal he got from Toronto. I think the Leafs could’ve gotten him at a million bucks cheaper per year, or even more. I think despite the fact that he MAY have paid his dues with 4 years in the AHL, he still isn’t worth $3.5m/year. So he got buried on a deep Avs team, but so has Kyle Cumiskey. I’m not gonna whip out my chequebook any time soon and make him a $10m+ offer. Maybe Fletcher will make me eat my words, but I highly doubt it.
For the record, I never thought the Kubina signing was bad.
By Jason C
on Jul 2, 2008
P.S. I don’t think being an RFA or UFA is a big role in how much a player gets, especially with offer sheets. If some team figures RFA Kronwall to be worth giving an offer sheet, they’ll pay him however much they think he’s worth. Especially with the new Russian CHL, teams that have RFAs certainly don’t have the negotiating power they used to. Just a month ago Sergei Kostitsyn was threatening to bolt to Russia if the Habs didn’t offer him enough. Same with Mikhail Grabovski.
By LeaferSutherland
on Jul 2, 2008
I know there has been a lot of talk about the 3.5 million dollar offer to Finger, but truth be told, I would much rather prefer the Leafs to overspend for a guy with potential, a 3+ offer that doesn’t hamper our cap, rather than paying a guy like Redden 6.5 after two dismal seasons giving us few other resources to improve the team.
Personally, I don’t think the Finger offer is anywhere near the worst I’ve seen yesterday.
Money aside, he appears to be just what the doctored ordered. A physical stay-at-home type, capable of playing up to 20 minutes a night that will keep our opposition honest while on the ice. Plus he’s coming off his best (only?) season.
Few UFAs can say that.
By Steve
on Jul 2, 2008
As far as RFA’s from Russia and the rest of eastern Europe go, that’s part of the deal… it doesn’t really increase their value that drastically.
The number of offer sheets signed in the past 5 years is pretty low. Vanek, Penner, Kesler, and now Backes? I can’t think of any others off the top of my head.
UFA’s have always, and will continue to, earn more. I haven’t got the numbers in front of me, but I’ll take the time to make this point in more depth later.
As for the signings I mentioned, yes they had prior value, but teams are obviously moving away from that. If you want an example of that, one need only examine the signings of players like Carter, Richards, Vanek, Penner, Roy, Getzlaf, Perry, etc. Long term deals, to RFA’s no less, who have produced maybe 1 or 2 solid seasons. They’re probably worth it, but only because your perception is pushed into that by constant media attention that scorers get.
As for defensive play, if 106 blocked shots is a big deal for Mitchell, then shouldn’t Finger’s 117 blocked shots be just as big? He had 13 more points than Mitchell. He had 121 hits, he had a Takeaway/Giveaway ratio over 1.00, and he was playing over 2 minutes on the PK, and over a minute on the PP, for a solid playoff team in Colorado. Not to mention that as the year wore on, his minutes were going up. During the last month of the season, he was regularly a top 2 or 3 minute player for the Avs, playing similar time to Foote, and Liles (more minutes than Liles on many nights in fact). He was a go to guy for them… and I don’t think $3.5 million is out of whack for that sort of player.
By Ninja
on Jul 2, 2008
Just to pile on, Finger was a healthy scratch in half of the Avs playoff games last year, according to the rags this morning. No idea of the situation, but being a healthy scratch at the most important time of the year after Finger playing the best season of his life doesn’t make me feel better about his bloated contract, or his defensive abilities.
By scotty
on Jul 2, 2008
Correct me if I’m wrong, but I think Finger became a “healthy scratch” for a game or two because of a mistake in overtime on a funny bounce off the net that cost the team a goal and the game (against the Wild). Up to that point, he had been logging big minutes. Rightly or wrongly, it appears that he was being punished for that mistake. Of course, there may have been more to the story…maybe he got into a yelling match with the coach about it or something. But Joel Quenville thinks and speaks very highly of Jeff Finger.
Like Steve, I can’t help but notice the blocked shots stats and consistent, while relatively non-flashy, defensive and offensive play.
By LeaferSutherland
on Jul 2, 2008
Despite being a healthy scratch in the playoffs, Fletcher claims that Joel Quenneville told him that Finger was one of the best D-man in free agency this summer.
By Dan
on Jul 2, 2008
IF FINGER DOESN’T WORK OUT, they can ship him to the miniors or trade him. Don’t worry about it.
By Jason C
on Jul 2, 2008
“The number of offer sheets signed in the past 5 years is pretty low. Vanek, Penner, Kesler, and now Backes? I can’t think of any others off the top of my head.”
That’s because they only came into prominence with the CBA 4 years ago. But have you seen the numbers that were offered? Vanek 7+, Penner, 4+, Kesler 1.9, Backes 2.5. Even if Vanek hit the open market that year he wouldn’t have gotten $7m a year.
“As for the signings I mentioned, yes they had prior value, but teams are obviously moving away from that. If you want an example of that, one need only examine the signings of players like Carter, Richards, Vanek, Penner, Roy, Getzlaf, Perry, etc. Long term deals, to RFA’s no less, who have produced maybe 1 or 2 solid seasons. They’re probably worth it, but only because your perception is pushed into that by constant media attention that scorers get.”
Finger does not come in the same pedigree as these guys. The guys you listed were all pegged to be NHL stars one day. Finger was no where to be found. Getzlaf, Perry, Carter, Richards are all future franchise players. Richards is a future captain. Finger shouldn’t even mentioned in the same breath as these guys. I’m not sure about Penner, but all of them have suited up for their respective countries and faired well in international play.
“As for defensive play, if 106 blocked shots is a big deal for Mitchell, then shouldn’t Finger’s 117 blocked shots be just as big? He had 13 more points than Mitchell. He had 121 hits, he had a Takeaway/Giveaway ratio over 1.00, and he was playing over 2 minutes on the PK, and over a minute on the PP, for a solid playoff team in Colorado. Not to mention that as the year wore on, his minutes were going up. During the last month of the season, he was regularly a top 2 or 3 minute player for the Avs, playing similar time to Foote, and Liles (more minutes than Liles on many nights in fact). He was a go to guy for them… and I don’t think $3.5 million is out of whack for that sort of player.”
Except Mitchell had 350+ games and 25+ games playoff experience.
“Like Steve, I can’t help but notice the blocked shots stats and consistent, while relatively non-flashy, defensive and offensive play.”
Consistent? The guy’s been in the league for less than 100 games! Mattias Ohlund is consistent. Brian Rolston is consistent.
“Despite being a healthy scratch in the playoffs, Fletcher claims that Joel Quenneville told him that Finger was one of the best D-man in free agency this summer.”
Fletcher also claimed that he would be GM for a short while. He should just drop that interim tag altogether.
By Ninja
on Jul 2, 2008
Thanks for filling in the blanks on the healthy scratch question. Glad to hear what Joel Q and Wilson had to say about him as well.
I’m definitely glad to have Finger, though. The $$$ is what raises the questions.
By scotty
on Jul 2, 2008
Brian Rolston, age 35, just got a four year deal that pays $5 million a year. Is he going to still be great at the age of 39? It’s a New Jersey gamble that may or may not pay off. I’m guessing most teams were offering him only two years due to his age (despite his great stats). Calgary is paying Sarich Fingeresque money to take care of his own zone and contribute essentially nothing offensively. Yes, Sarich has a Cup and has played many more games, but he’s not going to score any goals while Finger could probably contribute around 10 in a full season. The spin that Fletcher is trying to put on Finger’s lack of NHL experience is that Finger will have more energy and be more willing to play the body than someone like Kaberle or McCabe. We’ll see if that’s how it pans out. I’d be happy just having any kind of edge on the blue line for the Leafs since, as Don Cherry said, most nights opposition forwards could go into the corners without equipment against Toronto.
This season Ohlund will be paid the same as Finger in the last year of his contract. Would I rather have Ohlund than Finger on my team? Absolutely. Will Ohlund play for 3.5 next year as he sees free agency? Not a chance. He’ll probably get at least 6 mill. The economics are changing. Finger could end up being a steal, a bust, or just about right. Either way, at least Fletcher didn’t offer him a no movement clause!
By Steve
on Jul 2, 2008
Ok, let me get this straight - playing for your country at the World Juniors cements your cache as an all-star of the future? I guess Jeff O’neill and Bryan McCabe didn’t get that memo huh? And you’re probably ok with the Leafs giving Carlo Colaiacovo $3.5 million a year too?… or Ian White, or Kyle Wellwood, or Matt Stajan - guess what they were all stars in Junior too… and they played on the same junior teams as Carter, Richards, Getzlaf, and Perry.
When Mike Richards signed his (frankly ridiculous using your logic) contract extension that puts him in Philly for another 12 freaking years, he had played 166 NHL games, he had 35 goals, and 65 assists for 100 points. He wasn’t even a point a game player, and he was already their “franchise” player? For 12 MORE YEARS?
Vanek had played 163 games, and had 68 goals and 64 assists, for 132 points. He signed a 7 year deal, worth over $7 mill a year… 2 seasons got him virtually max money?
Penner? He’d played 101 games, he had 33 goals, and 19 assists, for a whopping 52 points - and he gets a 5 year offer sheet that’s paying him $4.25 mill a year. Oh, and he’d never suited up for his country, and he’d played 1 SEASON in the NCAA… before signing with Anaheim as an undrafted free agent.
Getzlaf and Perry have each played slightly over 200 games each. They both produced solid numbers and will going forward. But 3 seasons got them $5+ million dollars a year as RFA’s. There’s no reason to assume they won’t be injury prone going forward. Perry missed games with a concussion and a leg laceration to his quadricep this season - no reason to assume that stuff won’t hamper him going forwards.
I’m not actually arguing that these players don’t deserve their money, I’m just saying I find it strange that you’re arguing that their deals are logical, but the deal for Finger isn’t… because you don’t think he’s worth it.
If you’ve watched him play, and don’t think he’s worth the dough, that’s one thing. If you’re arguing that he hasn’t played “enough” because his games played number is too low for a 28 year old, that’s not really a reasonable argument. NHL experience is not the be all and end all in determining salary, nor should it be. Just because a player has played 500 games, doesn’t mean he deserves more money - just for showing up.
If Finger stinks the joint out regularly - THEN complain about him being overpaid. Until that happens, why not just withold judgement. For all you know, he’ll be one of the best signings Fletcher has ever made.
By Steve
on Jul 2, 2008
Mattias Ohlund is consistently injured is what he is. He hasn’t played over 80 games in 4 years. He missed almost half of last season, he missed almost half of 2002-03, he missed almost half of 2000-01, and he missed almost half of 1999-2000. In 10 NHL seasons, he’s missed almost half the year 4 separate times. That’s not amazingly durable.
As for Rolston - he’s 35 years old. How consistent will he be when he’s 39? Doesn’t make much sense to me at this point.
By Geoff
on Jul 2, 2008
My concern about the Finger and Hagman signings is that together they eat up 6.5 Million in cap space for the next 4 years. I know that in the mean time other contracts will be expiring but it seems to me that part of rebuilding is to get yourself into a good cap situation for the future. Taking a chance on two 28 year old players coming off career seasons doesn’t seem to be the ideal way of doing that. Having said that, it seems that Fletcher still needs to ship out at least one of McCabe, Kubina or Kaberle if he can which would clear some salary and, in the case of Kaberle or Kubina at least, would hopefully bring in some good and probably cheap young talent.
I know it’s hard not to overpay for free agents but Leaf fans are understandably afraid of the team continuing to be screwed by the kind of inflated contracts we’ve seen over the last few years.
By Jason C
on Jul 2, 2008
“Ok, let me get this straight - playing for your country at the World Juniors cements your cache as an all-star of the future? I guess Jeff O’neill and Bryan McCabe didn’t get that memo huh? And you’re probably ok with the Leafs giving Carlo Colaiacovo $3.5 million a year too?… or Ian White, or Kyle Wellwood, or Matt Stajan - guess what they were all stars in Junior too… and they played on the same junior teams as Carter, Richards, Getzlaf, and Perry.”
Each and every one of those players, O’Neill, McCabe, Colaiacovo, Wellwood, Stajan, were all players who people thought would be great impact players. Not every player who’s had success or played on WJHC teams would parlay that sort of success into the NHL, but the fact that they’ve been chosen to represent their country in the best international junior tournament in the world speaks volumes about their ability to play. Just look at where they’ve been picked. Asides from Wellwood, all of them were 1st or 2nd round picks.
“When Mike Richards signed his (frankly ridiculous using your logic) contract extension that puts him in Philly for another 12 freaking years, he had played 166 NHL games, he had 35 goals, and 65 assists for 100 points. He wasn’t even a point a game player, and he was already their “franchise” player? For 12 MORE YEARS?”
Have you ever seen Richards play? He is their best forward, bar NONE. He does everything, he is their franchise player, he is their assistant captain at age 23, he is their future captain. He was captain of the fabled North Dakota WJHC Canada squad. Hossa is a point per game player, but is he a franchise player? Definitely not.
Vanek and Penner, the two RFAs. You argued that UFAs would get more money on the market than RFAs. I argued otherwise. Those two guys are absolute proof that whether you’re an RFA or UFA, you will get the money you want.
“If you’ve watched him play, and don’t think he’s worth the dough, that’s one thing. If you’re arguing that he hasn’t played “enough” because his games played number is too low for a 28 year old, that’s not really a reasonable argument. NHL experience is not the be all and end all in determining salary, nor should it be. Just because a player has played 500 games, doesn’t mean he deserves more money - just for showing up.”
So a guy who “shows up” for 500 games isn’t worth the money. But Finger is worth the money. So somehow, Mitchell was just handed his jersey to play 500 times, and Finger’s uphill batter on a deep Avs team suddenly makes him a $3.5m/year guy. Okay, yeah, that makes perfect sense.
“Mattias Ohlund is consistently injured is what he is. He hasn’t played over 80 games in 4 years. He missed almost half of last season, he missed almost half of 2002-03, he missed almost half of 2000-01, and he missed almost half of 1999-2000. In 10 NHL seasons, he’s missed almost half the year 4 separate times. That’s not amazingly durable.
As for Rolston - he’s 35 years old. How consistent will he be when he’s 39? Doesn’t make much sense to me at this point.”
Durability and consistency are two completely different things. Huselius is one of the more durable wingers out there. Is he consistent? Heck no.
Rolston has posted up consistent numbers the past three to four years. I’d take a flyer on him before I do finger. Rod Brind’Amour is the most consistent Canes forward today. And he’s 38 friggin’ years old.
By Steve
on Jul 2, 2008
Ok here goes…
“Each and every one of those players, O’Neill, McCabe, Colaiacovo, Wellwood, Stajan, were all players who people thought would be great impact players. Not every player who’s had success or played on WJHC teams would parlay that sort of success into the NHL, but the fact that they’ve been chosen to represent their country in the best international junior tournament in the world speaks volumes about their ability to play. Just look at where they’ve been picked. Asides from Wellwood, all of them were 1st or 2nd round picks.”
AND
Finger does not come in the same pedigree as these guys. The guys you listed were all pegged to be NHL stars one day.
Ok let me see if I get your point… being “pegged” to be a top player means you should get big dough. Unless of course you don’t get it because “not every player who’s had success or played on WJHC teams would parlay that sort of success into the NHL”. Which is it? Is it both? Either it matters or it doesn’t. Pick one and stick with it. If it does, then great… we’re handing out big cheques to guys who played for the WJHC team. If it doesn’t, then we’re basing it on how they play in the NHL. Personally I’d rather base it on how the player PERFORMS in the NHL. But hey, that’s just me I guess.
Yes I’ve seen Mike Richards play, but nothing indicates to me that he’s MORE worthy of his $5.75 million now, let alone next year, or the year after that, or yanno… 12 more of those years, than Jeff Finger is of his $3.5 million over 4 years. Do you know how many players made $5.75 million this past season in the NHL? 31. That’s it. In the entire NHL. 31 players, for 30 teams. And guess how many of them had less than 4 years experience in the NHL? 1. Thomas Vanek. That’s it. Entire NHL, and only one guy made more than Richards will next year with less experience. And he led the league in +/- and was the top goal scorer on one of the best lines in the NHL. Next year you can add Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin, and … who else? 2 of those guys have won the Art Ross and Hart trophies, the other one finished 2nd last year in both. Mike Richards is a good hockey player, possibly even a GREAT hockey player, but he isn’t in that class. He might win a Selke down the line, and possible a Conn Smythe trophy if the Flyers ever win a Cup (I don’t see it in the next 5 years). He still doesn’t deserve $5.75 million any more than Finger deserves $3.5 million.
Now… the funny thing is, I specifically said the following (which you chose to blatantly ignore):
“I’m not actually arguing that these players don’t deserve their money, I’m just saying I find it strange that you’re arguing that their deals are logical, but the deal for Finger isn’t… because you don’t think he’s worth it.”
Would you mind explaining how you can ignore that sentence and then try to lambaste me on here for not being sure if I’ve ever seen Richards play?
You’re missing my entire freaking point… go back and read it again if you like.
I’m saying the number of games a player has played is obviously not that relevant in todays NHL. Get over that. If you think Finger is far less of a hockey player than the rest of these guys, MAKE THAT POINT. Don’t sit and complain about how he’s only played 94 games.
As for Rod Brind’amour, he made $4 million a year last year. Which is a lot when you consider he only had 51 points. And if you want to discuss longevity, I suggest you consider the fact that the average salary of players that played over 16 seasons in the NHL last year was $2.97 million. In 4 years, Brian Rolston will be on that list, and he’ll be making almost double that… and almost $2 million more than Rod Brind’amour was this season.
There were 23 players with over 16 years experience in the NHL last year, and only 4 of them scored over 20 goals. Sundin was the only one to score over 30. Rolston earning his paycheque is pretty unlikely.
How the heck does Kristian Huselius relate to Brian Rolston at the age of 39? And how is he so inconsistent? He’s played 6 NHL seasons, and he’s scored 20+ goals in 5 of them, and 40+ points in 5 of them. 5 out of 6 is inconsistent? Since when? Plus it should be noted that he was only making $1.6 million last year. Consecutive 65+ point seasons out of a guy making $1.6 million is pretty good. I don’t quite understand all the bashing he gets for that.
On the subject of RFAs vs. UFAs, for every Dustin Penner and Thomas Vanek, there’s a Chris Kelly making $2.175 mill, or Petteri Nokoleinen signing for $850,000, or Kurtis Foster signing for $1.025 million, or Janne Niskala signing for $600,000, or Ryan Craig signing for $787,500. Two guys getting big money is not “absolute proof” that you get what you want as an RFA. They’re exceptions to the rule that most RFA’s DON’T get what they want. If you think Vanek would’ve signed a $10 million dollar deal if Buffalo hadn’t had to deal with an offer sheet then you haven’t followed Buffalo’s signings very closely.
By Jason C
on Jul 3, 2008
I’ll keep this short. The NHL market is all relative. I firmly believe that if the best player in the NHL only earns $9m/year, then no player in the league should earn more than that. The benchmark for forwards are Lecavalier and Crosby, for defensemen it’s Lidstrom, and for goalies it’s Luongo. I think all salaries should be comparable to each other, but we all know that’s not the case. Of course there are GMs out there that “overpay” and raise the bar, which is one of the reasons why we’ve seen so many ridiculous numbers, namely Hossa’s $9m/year offer and Sundin’s $10m/year offer. I think Hossa and Sundin did the Oilers and Canucks, respectively, a great favour by not signing.
For the sake of argument let’s use Mike Richards. Here’s player that has been one of the best Kitchener has ever seen, captained a WJHC squad that tore up the entire tournament and has been arguably one of the best junior teams ever assembled, established himself as a leader on and off the ice, and broke out in just his second NHL season, despite missing 23 games. His point totals have gone up every single year. With the new CBA a lot of young players are signed based on potential. Richards cracked the Flyers lineup at 20, and slowly worked his way up through the depth chart, surpassing Carter. Clarke saw fit to sign him for 12 more years for an annual cap hit of $5.75m. Is the length ridiculous? Absolutely. Is the amount ridiculous. I really don’t think so. Richards has accomplished more at age 22 than a lot of players have accomplished at his age. Is he going to get better? Definitely - youth is on his side and like Zetterberg, his defensive game came first and just this year he proved he can put up some solid offensive numbers as well. If someday Richards hits the 100 point mark, or even the 90 point mark, is he worth $5.75m now? He definitely has the potential to do that. To answer your question, do I think Richards is worth it? Totally.
“If you think Finger is far less of a hockey player than the rest of these guys, MAKE THAT POINT. Don’t sit and complain about how he’s only played 94 games.”
I couldn’t be more clear that Finger is less of a hockey player. He lacks the experience and talent most of the other 28-year olds and $3.5m players have. There is no replacement for experience, and I would take Ryan Suter over Finger any day of the week.
Regarding Huselius and Rolston. Rolston is durable and consistent. Huselius is a durable yet inconsistent. Ohlund is not durable yet consistent. There’s a difference between consistency and durability. Finger hasn’t played enough NHL games to prove either. He’s played one full season. Talk to me when he’s played 3 more.
RFAs do get what they want. You really think Vanek wanted $10m? At that time, that number was unheard of. By getting $7m/year, he’s now one of the highest paid wingers in the NHL. Did he get the dough he wanted? Definitely, and probably more than he imagined.
By Jason C
on Jul 3, 2008
Conveniently left out Rod Brind’Amour. He had 51 points in 59 games. On a game to game basis, he is one of the better bang for your buck in the league. Over the past 3 years he’s played at almost a point per game and shining example of offensive consistency. At 38, he’s much more durable than any player at his age, and if you look at his career games played, it’s staggering. In 18 seasons he’s only missed an average of 6.5 games per year. At 38, he is the best conditioned and most durable player out there, although Joe Sakic (39) might be able to give him a run for his money. At his age, Brind’Amour is the best player in the league.
By Will
on Jul 3, 2008
Any ideas how much the leafs will pay for Mikhail Grabovski?
And what are your thoughts on this trade with the Habs?
By Steve
on Jul 3, 2008
Ok, so Rolston is durable and consistent because he’s missed 11 games in the past 7 seasons, and put up an average of 61 points over that span.
Huselius is durable because he’s missed 17 games over the past 6 seasons he’s played in, but for some reason his average of 51.5 points over that span is inconsistent? He has one blip year where he scored 77 points… Rolston has a blip year too, where he scored 79. Does that mean Rolston is more consistent? I don’t really see why. He played on crappy teams in Florida and didn’t score as much as he has recently playing on better teams in Calgary. It’s not a sign of his inconsistency that his team-mates sucked.
Even if you break it down monthly, Rolston’s months varied from 6 points to 13 points (not including April), while Huselius varied from 7 to 20. The rest of his months were between 7 and 12 points… a tighter spread than Rolston’s… I’m not really sure I follow the inconsistent argument on Huselius.
You’re still arguing the point about RFA’s getting what they want by throwing out 1 or 2 extreme examples… while completely ignoring the vast majority of RFA’s that don’t get even close to max money. You can’t prove a rule by using 1 exceptional case… sorry.
As for Brind’amour, I think we can all agree that he’s a bit of a freak of nature. My point about older players is, he’s an anomaly. The average point totals, goal totals, and games played is way down for players who are in their 16th year of service or higher. They break down and they play less. I’m not sure I see why we should assume Rolston won’t break down physically… unless you’re saying he’s a clone of Rod Brind’amour?
And on that note… this argument is not going anywhere. So you think Finger’s signing was dumb, I don’t see a reason to judge that yet. If it works out well, then it’s a good signing, if it works out badly, then it’s a bad one. I’ll reserve judgement.