Marlies Coming Up Short But Some Fans Still Defend Them
May 3rd, 2008 by SteveOk, because of my previously stated position on the Justin Pogge situation, I feel compelled to respond to Rob Del Mundo of TMLfans.ca and his assessment of the decision by Greg Gilbert to start Scott Clemmensen. Here’s a quote from his recent recap of the Marlies first round series “victory” over the San Antonio Rampage.
“In goal, Scott Clemmensen has started every game in the playoffs thus far, and has been arguably the team’s best player in the post-season.”
Really? Clemmensen currently has the 16th best goal tending stats in the AHL Calder Cup playoffs. After game 1 against Syracuse, he’s let in 22 goals on 237 shots against. That’s actually the most of every goalie in the playoffs. He’s played the same number of games as Scott Munroe of the Philadelphia Phantoms but he’s let in 9 more goals (on 30 fewer shots)… and he’s our “best player”?
“There are skeptics who question whether Leafs prospect Justin Pogge, long anointed as the Maple Leafs “goalie of the future” should have been named the Marlies playoff starter, or should have at least seen more playing time than a sole appearance in relief of Clemmesen after the team was shelled in Game #2. Fans have to realize that Pogge is not going to have the starter’s job handed to him on a silver platter. It is not enough for Pogge to be “on par” with his teammate; he has to outshine him and be AHL All-Star calibre material. While the goalie who backstopped Team Canada to a gold medal at the 2005 world juniors is certainly capable of reaching those levels next year, there is no evidence to suggest that he is at that stage yet.”
Yep, and I am one of those skeptics. If you anoint a player as a future cornerstone, you at least need to CHALLENGE THE GUY. I don’t think Pogge being named the playoff starter after he posted more regular season wins, and had better statistics during the regular season amounts to having “the starters job handed to him on a silver platter.”
I also fail to understand why he has to be AHL All-Star calibre to play be a starter in the playoffs; since only 6 goaltenders in the AHL were selected to the All-Star team, and NONE of them was named Clemmensen.
It should also be noted that the majority of goaltenders in the AHL are Canadian, and since only 3 Canadian goalies can be selected to 1 of the All-Star teams, that sort of limits thing for Pogge in that regard.
Also, considering the fact that 16 teams qualify for the playoffs, and 4 of the All-Star goaltenders play for teams that were eliminated in the first round I fail to see how this is a justification for being a playoff starter. It doesn’t amount to a serious qualification since the selection is fairly arbitrary anyway. Also… why is the “goalie who backstopped Team Canada to a gold medal at the 2005 world juniors certainly capable of reaching those levels next year,” not capable of reaching those levels THIS year? His record during the regular season was 26-10-4, while Clemmensen was 23-14-2. The difference in their winning percentages is .650 to .590, that’s pretty sizable.
“Pogge has big skates to fill, especially given the Leafs expectations of All-Star quality goaltending from Felix Potvin, to Curtis Joseph, to Ed Belfour, to Vesa Toskala. Quite simply, the fans’ impatience won’t change the facts.”
Felix Potvin, Curtis Joseph, and Ed Belfour were all NHL All-Stars… Vesa Toskala has never played in the All-Star game. Quite simply, if the fans are pretending Toskala is an All-Star, they’re already delusional, so I’m not sure pretending Pogge is one is a huge distinction.
The Marlies opponents in the North Division final are the Syracuse Crunch. Toronto won the first 4 games against Syracuse in the regular season, then proceeded to lose the next 4 (two in overtime, one in a shootout). Of the eight games between the two teams this year, only one was decided by more than one goal (October 28, a 5-2 Marlieswin). The series gets underway on Friday at Ricoh Coliseum.”
Here’s one of those “facts” that might be kind of relevant. Pogge had a 3-0-1 record against Syracuse this season. After Friday’s game, Clemmensen has a 1-2-2 record against Syracuse. I see absolutely nothing to dissuade me from the position that the Marlies and Leafs are completely failing in the development opportunity afforded them in these Calder Cup playoffs with respect to Justin Pogge. Obviously Rob doesn’t agree with me, but I don’t think some ad hoc points about Pogge not “unseating” Clemmensen as the starter because he didn’t play in the AHL All-Star game, and because someone thinks Clemmensen’s numbers thus far in the playoffs are good really convinces me the guys in charge have a logical plan of attack.
PUT DOWN THE KOOL-AID AND TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT THE ORGANIZATION IS DOING!!!
Pogge should get the start in the next game… or I shall continue to become more disgruntled.
Posted in Prospects
5 Responses to “Marlies Coming Up Short But Some Fans Still Defend Them”
By Marco on May 3, 2008
Agreed.
By navin vaswani on May 4, 2008
agree 100% bro.
for del mundo to argue that clemmensen is the right call is certifiably absurd.
By robdm on May 23, 2008
Interesting perspective.
I’ll try and address as many points as I can.
1)Re: The Marlies first round “victory”
Why the quotes, I’m just curious. Of course it was a victory, the Marlies won!
And yes, Clem was the best player for the Marlies in that series (in my opinion) despite his stats…in fact the entire Marlies team had average stats. I wasn’t referring to the rest of the AHL when I wrote that sentence, only stating that I believed Clem to be the best Marlies player. In the second-round series vs. Syracuse, my picks for the best Marlies players were shared between Clem, Jay Harrison and John Mitchell. Either way, the Marlies would not be in the final four, if not for the play of Clem.
It’s almost as if some (but not) all fans are disappointed that the Marlies won with Clem, and would rather have the Marlies lose with Pogge. I seriously hope that this statement doesn’t apply to anyone reading this.
2) “If you anoint a player as a future cornerstone….”
There’s an underlying assumption here that is the crux of my argument against every person with whom I’ve had this discussion.
“IF you anoint…”
Pogge - for all his accolades - was never ‘anointed’ by anyone other than the fans (and to an extent the media) as the future cornerstone of the franchise. He had a great 2006 WJHC, and final year of junior. Came to ‘06-07 rather ‘full of himself’, wasn’t prepared for the adjustment and had a very mediocre year.
As for ‘07-08, I think he’s made strides…i think he’s given Clem some adequate competition for playing time…but in my opinion, has not shown why he - and not a starter with NHL experience - should have been given the starter’s job at the beginning of the playoffs. Gilbert saw the intangibles that Clem brought to the table..factors such as experience that aren’t necessarily measured by stats… and I - for one - agreed with the assessment.
If Pogge was standing on his head, proving that he’s one of the best in the AHL - I’d be jumping right along with the rest of the members of the Pogge bandwagon.
However, if mgmt. decides they want to stick with an NHL-experienced guy as their playoff starter, then I don’t disagree with the decision.
Pogge was the starter in Vancouver because he outplayed Devan Dubnyk, Carey Price and Julien Ellis in the WJHC training camp. If you consider the 80-game AHL schedule this year’s ‘08 “training camp” for the Calder Cup playoffs, I’ve seen nothing to indicate that Pogge outplayed Clemmensen. That’s based on my observations, of the 8-10 games I covered this year.
I’m just amazed that the decision has become such a point of contention among fans, particularly those who have never seen a Marlies game (not referring to anyone specifically - just a general comment).
3) I think today’s article by Kevin McGran of the Star had some good quotes that are worth digesting.
From Mike Penny:
“No one in management ever said there was a time frame (for Pogge to develop). It’s not uncommon for goalies to put in three or four years (in the minors) before the door is opened. This does not happen over night.”
From Greg Gilbert:
“Part of developing young players is teaching them how to win, what it takes to win, winning breeds winning. It’s one thing to make decisions based on popularity, and it’s another to make decisions based on what’s correct.”
From Pogge himself:
“I’m happy with my progress. I had a great season this year. Scotty was playing good down the stretch, and that’s why they went with him. That’s pro hockey.”
For what it’s worth, I was happy that Pogge stood on his head in Game #4, and hopes he shines in Game #5 tonight to extend the series.
I’m not anti-Pogge, I’m just amazed at the amount of backlash given to the decision to start Clem. All he did was win a couple of 7-game series.
Anyway, thanks for your interest in my columns guys. Agree, or disagree, keep on reading!
-Rob
Co-owner and Site Administrator
http://www.tmlfans.ca
Marlies correspondent, author of “Marlies Report”
PS - Kool-Aid is underrated, and that’s not absurd.
By Steve on May 23, 2008
Ok I reserve the right to rebuttal:
1) I quoted the word victory, because I feel it is an overstatement of the accomplishment. They beat a team they finished 15 points ahead of in the standings. That’s roughly comparable to the New Jersey Devils triumphing over the Toronto Maple Leafs this season. I’d call it expected… not something to celebrate over.
2) You didn’t say “IF you anoint…”, I did. In fact if you read the quotation that was lifted directly from your article…“There are skeptics who question whether Leafs prospect Justin Pogge, long anointed as the Maple Leafs “goalie of the future” should have been named the Marlies playoff starter..”. I guess that means YOU (and not anyone to do with the Leafs) have anointed him the “goalie of the future”? Here’s the obvious fact you are ignoring: The Leafs dealt Tuuka Rask for Andrew Raycroft, and KEPT Justin Pogge. They were taken in the same draft year, they both played at the WJC, and Pogge won the gold. They picked which one was their future netminder by shipping the other one to Boston…(yes I know about the contract issues at the time but frankly that seems like revisionist history considering the fact that they touted Raycroft as their netminder for a few years when the deal was made)- that’s anointment by proxy if nothing else.
Also, you say playing “Clem” in the post season makes sense due to his NHL experience. The guy has played 29 NHL games over a 7 season NHL career. 1 of those was a playoff game.
I think the point is well made that the AHL is a DEVELOPMENT league, and arguing that veterans should play ahead of the players you’re trying to develop because “winning breeds winning” is a load of crap. If you never give young players any responsibility at crunch time, I’m not really sure how you expect them to show up when it counts at the highest level.
3) Your selection of quotes might be interesting, but Mike Penny and Greg Gilbert are going to spin things positively no matter what, and Pogge is going to say the right things in the hope he gets another start at some point. The people being quoted aren’t likely to give an objective opinion now are they?
In regards to Penny’s statements, sure young goalies are given 3 or 4 yeas of seasoning in the AHL, but very rarely do those players get zero playoff starts in favour of an aging spare part net minder that has no future within the organization. Ryan Miller started 26 playoff games for the Rochester Americans in his 3 years on the farm. Miika Kiprusoff got to start half of the playoff games for the Kentucky Thoroughblades while he was down on the farm. Martin Brodeur got the majority of starts in the playoffs for the Utica Devils during his one season in the minors alongside Corey Schwaab. He started fewer games during the regular season, and he got more playoff starts. Both netminders had crappy numbers (GAA over 4.00, SV% around .884), but he still got MORE starts. Roberto Luongo had worse numbers (higher GAA and lower SV%) and fewer starts (26 compared to 46) than Travis Scott during the regular season with the 99-00 Lowell Lock Monsters, but guess what, he got the majority of starts in the post season.
I’m not buying the whole, “lots of goalies do this” argument for the whole lack of vision at the level of Leafs management. It doesn’t make sense, and yes it’s “worked” so far, but that isn’t really because Clemmensen was playing awesome hockey.